In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Tucson Arizona based flamenco movement artist Angelina Ramirez. Ramirez explores what it means to be a queer, latinx flamenca practicing in a traditional Roma/Gitano form of dance. As a teaching artist she is interested in the intersections of art and healing, focusing on work with elders of all abilities and integrated flamenco for neurodivergent participants. She has toured the world with renowned companies like Noche Flamenca and continues to produce events and festivals throughout Arizona.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Tucson Arizona based flamenco movement artist Angelina Ramirez. Ramirez explores what it means to be a queer, latinx flamenca practicing in a traditional Roma/Gitano form of dance. As a teaching artist she is interested in the intersections of art and healing, focusing on work with elders of all abilities and integrated flamenco for neurodivergent participants. She has toured the world with renowned companies like Noche Flamenca and continues to produce events and festivals throughout Arizona.
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography in Akron, Ohio, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists in 2023-2024. Today we join Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive/Artistic Director, in conversation with Tucson Arizona based flamenco movement artist Angelina Ramirez. Ramirez explores what it means to be a queer, latinx flamenca practicing in a traditional Roma/Gitano form of dance. As a teaching artist she is interested in the intersections of art and healing, focusing on work with elders of all abilities and integrated flamenco for neurodivergent participants. She has toured the world with renowned companies like Noche Flamenca and continues to produce events and festivals throughout Arizona.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So, I'd love to start with when did you decide to become a choreographer? Was there a defining moment where you felt I am a dance maker?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Um, well, what's special about flamenco is that flamenco is done within a conversation and a structure. Um a lot of how we describe it, so people can understand is a lot like jazz (Bolingbroke: Hmm). There's a lot of communication happening live in order for us as a mover to do what we would like to do (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). But we're not doing it alone. We're working with the guitarist, we're working with the singer and stuff like that. So all of that like, um like, like your movement ideas, and movement structure comes from this conversation that's happening live with other artists. Now, outside of that, then you can get into conceptual ideas of choreography (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), choreography. I felt like I didn't give myself um permission to be my own choreographer (Bolingbroke: Hmm), until about 2018 (Bolingbroke: Wow). Like, well, deep into it (Bolingbroke: Yeah). Where I had, you know, actually was like, wait a second, you know, I can make flamenco my own (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). I'm not just, you know, (Bolingbroke: In service to so many others) in service to this and in service to the art form and in service to so many others, students, yada, yada (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). I was like, wait a second, I can do this for myself (Bolingbroke: Mmmm). And I can also tell my own story, using flamenco (Bolingbroke: Hmm), this practice that I have been, like, dedicated to and, and just in, enthralled with for so many years (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) to like, really, now start to tell my own stories and, and really, like experiment with my own movement (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know. So, it, I've, it's been so interesting, I guess, to answer your question after all of this, right, (Bolingbroke: Yeah, yeah), like it's still, it's still evolving (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), how I am as a choreographer, what, how I, how I work in this field as a choreographer, and um getting to work with other choreographers, especially um movers outside of flamenco (Bolingbroke: Hmm) and other genres and learning their practices (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm ) and then kind of bringing them into what I do is also very cool and very interesting and like really making me uh grow (Bolingbroke: Yeah), yeah, as a choreographer, so..
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Jumped right in (Ramirez: Yeah) into the whole journey. I love it (Ramirez: Yeah). And, and because you brought up the conversation with music as well and in, in anticipation for this, because I think you might be one of the first percussive dance artists that we have gotten the opportunity to speak with on this podcast. And so I'm really curious because the choreography and the movement also is musical. And so is there something that comes first, the sounds, the music that you are making, your contribution to the conversation? Or is it the movement and then the music and your role as a musician that comes on as a secondary layer? Or is there even an always one comes first over the other? Is this is the chicken and egg of flamenco? I don't know (Both laugh).
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Yeah, I mean, um, that's a good question. I think it all is very, depending. Um I think I, I guess I'll speak for myself. I, I will (Bolingbroke: Yeah, make it your own). Yeah, I'm gonna make it my own. Um I think that you will choose what specific rhythm that you want to work a storyline in (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). Yes, flamenco has the musicality is really quite complex and really quite beautiful and really like takes a lot of time. When I'm bringing people into flamenco, I tell them, you're not just learning movement, you're also becoming a musician (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), because it's also very important to understand what's going on in the music. You've got to study. I'm not a flamenco singer. I'm not a flamenco guitarist (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), but I need to kind of understand and know, what calls are, what breaks are, what um interludes are, and what like the purpose that they serve within, like, their own way of performing a piece (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So for me, it's like okay, well, I'm going to, I would like to work a piece in the palo. Palo meaning like, the rhythm or the music or the song (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), in Alegrías, which is, you know, a, um a music and song from, it comes from Cádiz, Spain (Bolingbroke: Mmm). You know, an Alegrías, meaning happiness, right? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) Is something that's more uplifting, there are many different types of songs, letras, we call them, that they can sing, but in this type of time signature (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), and in this type of um uh mood (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), which is up, happy, whatever. So I'm going to do Alegrías, but I'm going to tell my story, and I'm going to make certain types of choreography, or make some certain type of movement to this. So I need to know kind of what, what my basis (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), what rhythm I'm going to use, and then I think, then I will, you know, I know that I want to make something with this music (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And so then then it's kind of like, there is a structure (Bolingbroke: Yes). And I'm making like a square with my, you know, because (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) it can be, it can be very structural, but I feel like what, like what I was talking about before about giving myself permission to start playing with that structure (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), and breaking some rules (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And uh, uh then I can start really experimenting with it, you know (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) And, and in working with, so another thing is, I typically don't work with recorded music (Bolingbroke: Mmm). I always work with live musicians.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I, I was gonna ask, what do you look for when you talk about understanding some of the aspects of the music from, from such an empathetic place, just as sort of your own baseline understanding and self-awareness, what do you look for then, in a music, a musician or a musical collaborator?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: I'm very fortunate to know, um some amazing uh flamenco artists of both from Spain, but also here. Well, I'm from the Southwest (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), and you know, and work with mostly musicians that are kind of in my vicinity: Arizona, New Mexico, California. And uh however, there are musicians, artists, flamenco artists in general that actually prefer to just stick to what we call like, puro flamenco, purisima flamenco like (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Pure flamenco). Like the pure, this is like, you know, in, in, in all, yes, all of that. And there are some musicians that are willing to kind of go into this experimental (Bolingbroke: Hmm) route. Um so you know, I think knowing who those are you. I use both of them. Even challenge the ones who are like no, I'm just I'm a puro artist, (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know. And I'm like, Well, I can, you know, challenge them and, and work with each other. And I've been just really fortunate that my, the people that I work with that I call my flamenco family, my, my dearest friends, have really been supportive in my journey into kind of playing, experimenting (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), playing in flamenco, kind of, you know, coming out of this structure and this like this, the puro of it all and, and, and just trying out new things. So, so yeah…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Do you also uh find you look for traditionally trained flamenco dancers, or have you been exploring with differently trained dancers?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Mmm. Um, I. Both (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). Yeah. I, you know, that’s the cool part is that I always go back to um I guess to traditionally how, how flamenco is presented, you know (Bolingbroke: Hmm). I, I do that once a month in, in Tucson, Arizona, we have what we call a tablao (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) um which are like small cabaret type shows, small space, you know, live musicians, and we go in and we do like, our solos (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And, and we do, and we support each other, in, you know, if there's a guitar solo, there's a cante solo, a singing solo, and a dance solo, a baile solo, we kind of all do our pieces (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), and then that's the show (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know. Um more like conceptual productions um, um I've worked, actually, yes, only mostly with flamenco artists, or flamenco trained artists (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). I'm very fortunate in this last, since the beginning of this year, and a little bit into last year, um been learning a lot from other movement artists and (Bolingbroke: Hmm), and their, their approaches to practice (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And like I like I've mentioned before, and really adapting some of that into flamenco. And I feel like that it's changing a little bit how information comes out of my insides, my insights (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) into my body (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), which is actually quite exciting. And different (Bolingbroke: So much perspective). Oh, yeah. So much perspective (Bolingbroke: Yeah) and, and get to. I am working with a dear friend of mine, and we're working on some weird stuff. Hey, I. I figured out I've learned this tool (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), like, can we try it together? (Bolingbroke: Hmm) And how uncomfortable we both are, you know, but seeing his like, his, like, uncomfortable, this like this, this other way of being vulnerable (Bolingbroke: Hmm) to what we're trying to say. And, and it takes a lot because we've, we've been like flamenco (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), a lot of times it's just so in the studio and learning the structure and you know, and then it's kind of up to you to like, take it where you want to.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Well, it, it seems like hearing you is reminding me I think that there is a uh implicit assumption, maybe with classically, classically rooted art forms, that, that you practice and you get really good at it. But it's not about perfection (Ramirez: Right) perhaps. I love hearing you (Ramirez: Right) describe like we're doing weird stuff (Ramirez: Mmm-hmm) and agreeing to be uncomfortable (Ramirez: Mmm-hmm). So, I want to invite you to articulate like, what is your definition of virtuosity (Ramirez: Mmm) in dance then? If it isn't, you know about the person with the fastest footwork (Ramirez: Mmm-hmm) or the most musicality, but it kind of is you've been on this journey, what's virtuosity to you right now?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Right now, it's um being, recognizing, being patient with um and work, and working with my aging body (Bolingbroke: Mmm). Uh you know, flamenco is demanding um to your body. And uh and as we all know, as all movers know, like the as we age, our movement changes (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) and our, our, maybe our abilities might change and, and we maybe can't do things like how we used to when we were 13 years old, you know…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: (Laughs) There's a lot of things I can't do (Ramirez). Yeah, that I used to do at 13 years old.
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know what virtuosity is, is like, leaning into that (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And in, in being okay with, like, making that as an evolvement (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And not as like, Well, I used to be able to do four turns, you know, (Bolingbroke: It's not a loss), and it's like, it’s not a loss (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, um it's in flamenco um you know, it's, it's what you're giving (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, it's kind of like, what you're, what you're giving to the people, your audience, and whoever you're trying to, like, use this for.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Something different to give (Ramirez: Yeah), at this age (Ramirez: Oh, yeah), than, than in teenage years. (Ramirez: Yeah). How, you talked a little bit about uh you've been learning so much from other movement artists (Ramirez: Mm-hmm). You also have been doing some work as a teaching artist around creative aging (Ramirez: Mm-hmm). How has, what have you been learning there? What has that looked like? And how is it speaking to this latest definition of virtuosity?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: What is important for me is making flamenco accessible to all (Bolingbroke: Hmm). For all abilities, for all bodies, for all, you know, it and it, and it is, and it's, it's so good for us. I mean, we, movement is good for everyone (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). But flamenco can give a little bit, a little bit of extra, because, again, we're moving, we're working with rhythm, we're working with movement, we're working with communication, we're working with song, we're working, you know, music and everything is not just for um you know, the, the music is not just for the guitarist (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, in the, in the, this, the song is not just for the singer (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), the movement is not just for the dancer. So, flamenco brings, like, because of that this sense of community, you know. It brings this sense of like, sharing space (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And so more working with older adults. Um uh you know, flamenco in general, I mean, like I said, takes a lot of what's inside (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And as we age, we have more story more experience more, you know, more things to share and more things to tell (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So, it's not about the ability to do fast footwork, you know. It's, it's showing that, you know, um moving your hand can mean so many different things, and what do you want it to mean? (Bolingbroke: Hmm) You know, and once you, you, you give that that prompt, like what do you want this to mean? Then, that moving the hand in, in a circle, way (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) um becomes personalized to that person, you know, and they have just been just like, made a movement, their own (Bolingbroke: Hmm). You know, kind of using, using a flamenco movement technique, you know (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So, um and then just kind of approaching it that way with them like, okay, this is, this is what this is, so, in, I'm working with hands right now. So, this is our floreo. So, if your hands feel good, you know, tell me tell me, I'm gonna I'm gonna teach you how we do a floreo (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). Now, think about, like, what you want that floreo to mean. And they get to kind of personalize, it doesn't look like mine (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, but we're doing the same thing (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So, it's just very personalized. And, and, and allowing them to just kind of take ownership of their movement (Bolingbroke: Hmm), as I'm just kind of showing them a base of what like a flamenco hand gesture is or a stomp.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: As I'm watching you move your hands (Ramirez: Mm-hmm) and, and sort of to describe for some of our listeners who don't get to see, you know, the um fingers, you know, flu, almost blooming outward as flowers (Ramirez: Mm-hmm) and bringing in. But it's also I'm reflecting on what you said about virtuosity being sort of meeting your body (Ramirez: Mm-hmm), where you are in terms of aging, and maybe reflecting on what you used to do at 13, and letting go of that to meet yourself where you are right now (Ramirez: Mm-hmm). It sounds like a lot of the work with creative aging is not about reminding people who they were at 13 because this might be their first introduction to (Ramirez: Right) flamenco, but it is about embracing the sort of beginner mindset (Ramirez: Mm-hmm) to approach and flamenco as an outlet for expression.
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Absolutely. Yeah (Bolingbroke: Amazing). Absolutely. And that excites them so much (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). And it's something fun (Bolingbroke: All the senses). All the senses (Bolingbroke: And the listening). Yeah (Bolingbroke: The body, the tactile-ness). Yeah (Bolingbroke: Yeah), I think, you know, when um, when they are being introduced to, we're going to have a flamenco class, you know, there's all you know, it's like, What? You think we're going to be able to do that? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) You know, and I've, I've worked with this now for a few years, and I feel like I've have a really good approach for anybody (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, no matter how old but particularly for older adults, like, this doesn't have to be as intimidating (Bolingbroke: Mmm) as you think. Okay (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). Let's sit down and talk about it first. And before you know, it before they know it, we're sitting and we're doing some movement (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, and before they, before they know it, we might be, you know, trying it standing up (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm), you know, or, you know, or, or stay seated, or, you know, it's, it's, it's however you want to like, come into this space, we're gonna work with it.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So much choice making (Ramirez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm) with how you wanted to show up in the space (Ramirez: Yeah), and it's not just about making those shapes in spaces as well (Ramirez: Yeah). So beautiful.
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Yeah (Bolingbroke: Mmm). Yeah, it's nice. And it's such a good way to like, also connect with someone, a participant and get to know them. And um, and also, like, work with them, they're, they’re, we're like flamenco we're communicating (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). I might be coming in as the teaching artist, but then all of a sudden, I feel like we're in a we're, there's a time where we're kind of sharing those roles (Bolingbroke: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm), you know?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah. Like in any communication or conversation, you know, when someone's talking at you. (Ramirez: Yes, yes). And then also, when they're looking for their moment to also contribute something (Ramirez: Yes). And that give and take (Ramirez: Mm-hmm). One more question: I'm curious what sort of advice you have received, either from your teachers over time that continues to reassure or propel you forward? Or if you have a favorite piece of advice that you wouldn't mind offering on to any of our listeners or students who are considering a creative life?
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Someone who knew me for since I was a kid, taking class in Tucson, and I don't think she realized that she was giving me a piece of advice that is stuck with me throughout all this time, all these years, is that I had left to go train in New Mexico, flamenco and then I came back for a short time and I was teaching class and she came in and we were, you know, I've known her for many years. She was, she's older than I and, and she's like, Angelina, now, what are you going to do? What do you plan on doing now that you're back? And I said, I. I just don't know. And then she said, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do until I was 30. And they said, okay, she goes, but you know, give yourself some time and be patient with yourself. Don't feel like you need to rush into anything (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And, and it you know, don't feel like you need to rush into anything (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, and I constantly, I, I do, you know, I think we all can be very hard on ourselves and we feel a sense of urgency, (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) you know, and especially when you're getting older, you're like, you know, I haven't done that yet, you know (Bolingbroke: Yeah), and it's like, I do it, I bring it back. And I say, okay, you know, you don't have to be in such a hurry. Like it's going to happen. Um I feel like, what is mid-career these days, you know (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), and people throw that term at me all the time. And I'm just like, okay, I'm, I might have, I might be doing flamenco now for 30 plus years, and I might be in middle-aged (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, but there's still a lot of things that I'm learning, and there are still a lot of things that I want to do (Bolingbroke: Hmm). You know, and so I'm still emerging. You know, although I've been doing this practice for a long time, like, I'm still an emerging artist (Bolingbroke: Yeah). You know, and I have to, I want to remind myself that (Bolingbroke: Hmm), whenever I feel like I'm running out of time (Bolingbroke: Hmm)
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: You know, it's that beginner mindset again (Ramirez: Yeah). That openness as a, as a place of staying grounded (Ramirez: Mm-hmm) instead of getting swept along.
ANGELINA RAMIREZ: Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that's what keeps me you know, um it just keeps me thriving (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, I, I, I'm doing cool things right now (Bolingbroke: Yeah). You know, things that weren't really that planned (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), as I was like, Okay, what do I want to do as a professional dancer? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) You know, and I never really, like, felt the need to, like, ever answer that question. I just kind of took it like, in the steps that it came (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, and then sometimes those one experience can be done and over and just leaves you room to try something else (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So, um yeah, I'm, I'm really happy right now with what I'm doing. I don't think that, these weren't like, long-term goals (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), but maybe they were like, inside and I didn't realize it and put it outward (Bolingbroke: Without being a box). Yes, yes. Yeah (Bolingbroke: Yeah). So yeah, um, I would Yeah, I'd say just, just take some time, you know (Bolingbroke: Hmm), and don't feel rushed and urgent, because some maybe some of that work, whether, whether creative or professional (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) goals might not turn out, like the way you really, well that, you know, that you don't, that don't, that you deserve, you know (Bolingbroke: Mmm), in some times, like give it some space and some air like, will probably settle in a way that you can handle and that you deserve. [BEAT]
OUTRODUCTION: Support for Inside The Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation, the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts, and Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. James Sleeman is our editor, transcription by Arushi Singh. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Sarah Durham, and Will Blake. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.