In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the 'studio' with Evanston, Illinois-based interdisciplinary dance artist Joe Bowie. Bowie uses autoethnography to unlock narratives that layer the past, present, and future as archival choreographic methods. His creative and scholarly research convenes at the intersection of Blackness, queerness, and Black joy. Bowie danced professionally for over twenty-five years with The Paul Taylor Dance Company and The Mark Morris Dance Group before prioritizing his own work as a dance maker. Bowie received his MFA in Dance with a Graduate Minor in Queer Studies from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
Jennifer Edwards: Thanks for joining us Inside the Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography in Akron, Ohio. This podcast was recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists in 2024 and 2025.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the 'studio' with Evanston, Illinois-based interdisciplinary dance artist Joe Bowie. Bowie uses autoethnography to unlock narratives that layer the past, present, and future as archival choreographic methods. His creative and scholarly research convenes at the intersection of Blackness, queerness, and Black joy. Bowie danced professionally for over twenty-five years with The Paul Taylor Dance Company and The Mark Morris Dance Group before prioritizing his own work as a dance maker. Bowie received his MFA in Dance with a Graduate Minor in Queer Studies from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
Christy Bolingbroke: Full disclosure friends, Joe and I have a previous working relationship. When he was dancing in the Mark Morris Dance Group, I was working as their Director of Marketing. And so it's been such a treat to get to reconnect with you. I first met you as a dancer. I'm really curious how or when did you start to claim the term choreographer?
Joe Bowie: I feel like it's more recent than anything else. I claim the term of dancer so late in what people would consider like a dancer's life. I started dancing in college, and so I claim that so late that I held onto it for such a long time in a way that my voice became the voice of the person for whom I was dancing.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And so it was either, you know, Paul Taylor to begin with and then Mark Morris, for many years after that. And so I realized that within that time, I really, I didn't push it away, but I just sort of allowed myself to be more of an interpreter (Bolingbroke: Mmm) of someone else's work with ideas. And I would always be sort of charged with sort of when I would help him direct operas and things, fixing (Bolingbroke: Hmm), you know, sort of fixing and moving around. I guess that those were my sort of earliest forms of formal choreograph, choreographic sort of play. And, but I feel like, you know, besides making up dances when I was a little kid that I really started in graduate school and that was only three years ago. I recently finished my MFA at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. I think it was there where someone called upon me to say what my voice was, to start to hone that and to explore it. And, and really sort of in real ways rather than simply like, Oh, I know these steps, or I can put things together. Because I think that the one thing that I learned from the choreographers for whom I had worked with, I could put things together in sort of a tidy little package, but that package, though it was a part of me, was not necessarily what I was interested in saying. You know, I love to say things and I love to write. And so it's those things became more evident. I think that my movement style, my movement choices became sort of surfaced in a beautiful way and they kind of started to foreground. And my process at least, you know, sort of in a nascent way became sort of more available to me. And I, I was just like, you know what? I really, I am making a piece. It took a long time to claim that term though. I mean, it's, it felt so big.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: It felt like such a big term. It, I felt, and I felt behind (Bolingbroke: Hmm) because everyone had, I had been dancing and people had been making pieces and I think for many people it felt sort of natural to be creating all within that. And I was reading, writing, baking a lot (Laughs).
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: You know, and so I, it seemed like something that was almost unattainable, um, in a way I had placed it far, far away from me. And so as I started to sort of move in on it, and say that it was mine and ask have people ask me to make things or to research things, and to begin working on a process. I feel like it's like three, maybe four years old.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: You know, um, in an actual claiming way that wasn't, based on anyone else but me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm. And that's exactly what we're gonna unpack, as part of this, because I know of your love for language and words. I wanna ask you, how do you name a dance knowing your entry point is often through language and it is, it's one of your specialties, you know. We know the power of naming,
Joe Bowie: We know the power of naming. It often just comes to me. Um, I, I, I don't mean to say like, sort of this, like, I, I like, whoa know, just waiting for this inspiration. But kind of, I sometimes have a name in mind or what I'm feeling as a, as a thing, even before I be, I get into the studio.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Joe Bowie: And I, I guess because one of my primary forms of research is narrative and storytelling, and so there's always a story that comes to mind, and there's something within that that somehow encompasses everything (Bolingbroke: Hmm) for me, it's like these are the things that either it's like I, my thesis project was called Shake! Spill! Kiki! And these were kind of the things that I wanted to do in the piece.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: You know, I wanted to shake things up. I wanted to spill a little bit of tea and I wanted us to laugh and have fun. You know, have a kiki. And so when I, when I take things and sort of move them around, it kind of becomes like, what, what story am I telling right now? And that sort of really informs for me what the piece is gonna be called. Sometimes it comes later, I. I started working on this piece recently and I started calling it Don't Go There. And it was about ballet narratives and the, the stories, of training stories. I started, I had my students write their training stories for me, last quarter. And some of them were really heartbreaking to hear 'cause I started dancing so much later. To hear things that were said to them as children and stuff. I was just like, Oh, who says that? A lot of people turns out, say.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Bowie: So I, I was like, you know, are these, you know, are these things that we should be discussing? I don't want to trigger or traumatize, but those things are still there. And I still think that those types of training, though there's better language for it or more sort of guideposts in place now, I still think those things still exist. Um, we don't know what happens in studios or in those spaces (Bolingbroke: Hmm) unless someone shares it. So I had a, I was like, don't go there. I, was this thing, it’s like, are we ready to go there to discuss these things? And I'm not a ballet dancer and did not start as a kid, but I had been in some, unfortunately, some quite abusive spaces, depending on the time. And so I was thinking about it and then I started, and then this week I had, I said, I want to call it Who's in Charge?
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Joe Bowie: Because I was talking with collaborators, we were talking about those inner narratives and a monologues of like when someone gives you corrections and why you hold onto the negative ones rather than the positive ones.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Joe Bowie: And so we, you know, we're talking about like these ballet narratives of what is said? Um, and what voices in your head remain? So you're hearing, let's say you're getting notes or you're getting corrections and you're hearing it from that person, but you've also got this inner working and this inner dialogue and or monologue. Who knows what it's (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) at this point going on. So it was just like, like, who's really in charge of these spaces? Who's in charge of this body (Bolingbroke: Hmm) that you're moving around? So we're moving this. So I was just like, I think I wanna call it Who's in Charge? And there's, there's just three of them. And so they're moving around each with each other as well. And mostly in concert. But like someone leading or someone pulling, and I've just, I wanted to sort of play with that pull. Um, so it's, it usually comes for me, it comes from action. It comes from the action, I think in the activity within words as well. It does have that thing of like, I’m not trying to be clever, really, you know, whether it is or not or someone would consider it. That's not really my goal. My goal is to see like what's happening within it: what words, what language, what narratives are being sort of woven throughout. Yeah, I think that, that, that tends to be the place that, that I go to most often if I'm writing. And the same happens if I'm like writing a story or something. If I'm working on a story, there’s something that really makes itself present and evident. I don't often, and I do, you know, as I leave myself open to change, because you never know. But something usually comes at the beginning that at least is the spark or the thing that initiates everything. It's fortunate in academic or institutional settings. You do have the, you know, like I can change a little bit. I I think that if I were making a piece and it was going to be presented at some space in New York City, I probably wouldn't be able to like just shift. I don't know because I haven't ever done that really, or have just a little bit. But I, I feel like this, allows me that space because we have, at least here, most of the things that we're working on are very sort of research oriented and process oriented and meant to be. And so the other night it was just like, what would happen if I changed the name?
Christy Bolingbroke: Hearing you talk about it, reminds me to also remind to our listeners that the creative process is not a linear path. And sometimes it's cyclical. Sometimes it's super spacious, whether you have three weeks or three months, until they put it in print, you always can change it. And we also know some artists, they're like, Well, it premiered and then I'm gonna keep working on this idea, but just call it something different the next time too. So where in your process does does sound, and I'm specifically thinking about like how you would characterize your choreographic relationship to music.
Joe Bowie: I love music. I am not, um, necessarily as connected to it as my, my former bosses.
Christy Bolingbroke: Your training. Yeah.
Joe Bowie: My training. But I have always danced to music as joy, as what feels natural to me. I don't know if I'm inspired by it. Maybe, um, sometimes there's a piece of music that comes on that really is like, you know, something should be done to that. But I am happiest moving to it, moving with it and, and to it. And with it being sort of different things. Like sometimes you're moving within it.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And in those spaces of it, or, like this floating melody above it. And sometimes you really want, want to ground yourself into this sort of base foundational thing going on in it. I grew up playing an instrument and singing and, I think that I always just really liked it. I was always the one who came out and was like, show us the new dance kind of kid. I was one of those kids, a ham. It was always, you know, the new, what's the new dance?
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: What's the new thing? What's the new song? And I think that I, it's in, it's just in there. I um, I mean, I tell myself things like, oh, you know, in my process maybe I could just make it about rhythm? and maybe I could just like do like, you know, body, a little bit more body percussive? and sometimes that's there, But I generally am led by qualitative, qualitative things within music. and in particular, if that's something that's led or I, or how I am, um sort of upending that.
Christy Bolingbroke: Well, and at what point in the process, like I've, I've witnessed some choreographers who are like, this is just placeholder music. 'cause we do just need a steady beat in the background. And then they might change it later on or develop a sound score. And I've also witnessed a process where people will work completely in silence and it, and it comes very late. And then we also have witnessed some with score in hand or the music is the inspiration. So do you, have you noticed a sort of consistent trend as far as when you like to incorporate music in your creative process?
Joe Bowie: I like to incorporate it from the beginning. My goal this time is to not be so closely aligned with specific phrasing of things 'cause I read music too, and I, but I, I, I don't, you know, the thing of walking around with a score and doing it or even sort of interweaving within those notes isn't as interesting for me. Um, I like it, how does it feel? It feels more like it's setting a tone. And so this time I'm really playing with, there's some openness to it and we're finding landmarks within (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) musical scores that we're using, um, or musical pieces that we're using. So we're finding these places that feel like this is how we wanna move here and this not fit, but kind of, sort of fits here. This feels like what we're going for. So we're doing that and, but it feels like a fight sometimes of not making it tidy.
Christy Bolingbroke: Right.
Joe Bowie: 'Cause I can be very tidy and I know how to do that. This time, there's an interesting thing as well. We have collaborators, like I have a sound designer. And so she's taken, she's taking two pieces of music that, and she's getting her Master's here, so she's a student as well. So we're all working in our own little realms. I have a lighting design MFA and a sound design MFA.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Joe Bowie: And so they have a voice within this, and I want them to, because I have never been able, I haven't had that or I have not taken that, um, those opportunities, opportunities to collaborate in that way.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Joe Bowie: So she's taking two pieces of music that I have and she's gonna layer them and play with them. One, I would like to be a little bit more prominent. I told her, but I said, but let's see 'cause I'm really interested in her voice. She happens to be a musician, but she does mostly like folk stuff. And so I'm just curious to see where she's gonna fall within this.
Christy Bolingbroke: I was gonna just say like, talk about who's in charge, it sounds, you know, similar to way some choreographers work with dancers, you know, or if you're in a duet and you, you have to figure it out together, that that's the invitation you've made with your collaborators to also have space to play and dialogue and not just dictate to them, this is how it's going to work. Because you have worked for, uh, and danced for these, you know, keen 20th century, you know, figures in, in dance. I'm curious, making work now in the 21st century, how would you describe your own movement, aesthetic, or artistic point of view?
Joe Bowie: In the 21st century, dance making for me, I feel like there's a possibility of stories of people, of communities going away.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: There's a possibility of, you know, we're watching it now. It's like if you take things away and far enough away from now this, we're sort of dropping this pebble and, and the ripples. And as you get farther and farther away, they have less resonance. And I feel compelled and that it's necessary for me to begin with these stories and I, physical and embodied stories living within me, how those need to be there, and be present.. I'm led by this embodied storytelling by these narratives that must exist because dance has this dance is ephemeral.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: You know, we can, of course we can record things, but the one way that we've kept things a lot or kept things around is writing it down.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: And so there's that, you know, that coding, that thing that you can do that, um, language and naming as we were saying, like when you come to that point where you name, even when you say what you are knowing, even if that's fluid, that for that moment you're saying like, this is who I am and what I'm doing, it's not all that I'm
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: But it's a part of who I am and so I feel like it is really important for me in terms of a process and my process to start from a place of a story or a narrative or something that lives within me and it's cellular. Um, and I want it be available and not because, not necessarily in this way of like, you know, my story's the only one that needs to be told with this ego (Bolingbroke: Mm-mm). I need to get this out. But as a collective spirit of these stories need to be told. And I, I feel like, you know, it's funny, I've been reading a lot about abstraction recently. Miguel Gutierrez wrote this piece called ‘Is Abstraction Just for White People.’ Because there's an expectation that happens when you are from a marginalized community to teach.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: You tell, and it be, there's, um, sometimes a pressure or just you just feel like you must and I, I sort of sit in that, but I, I do feel like I must, but I don't feel like it's a burden. I want people to know, and if, even if mine is just one perspective or one facet of looking in or zooming in or zooming out so that you can say like, Oh look, you know, there's, there's Christiy's and there's Joe's, and there's like, so I think, you know, like it's, um, like when I came to NCC Akron, I did, I wanted food because it's like we all (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) is some place we can gather around this and recipes and stories and the movements that happened in the kitchen or the movements that happened because of the food and what you did and how you moved among each other. I feel like I am one ingredient in this lovely, giant pot of soup, gumbo, whatever you want to call it. Um, and I'm adding my spice and my ru (?) and all these things, and, and then you come and you add yours (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). And, you know, and other people can come and add these things. So when I'm in the studio with my collaborators, even it's a different thing working with students than it is working with professional dancers. You have to say like, I would love this is, you know what I'm thinking, but you also have to say like, here's what we can do.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: Here's what we can do. And like you said, like this beginning or this process, I'm glad we're thinking of it even in this performance, like a process of things, because I would like to think about it later, or on, or how it be could become, like, my thesis became a solo. With some pushing, but it did, it became a solo. It was really important for me to do it as a solo, because then it was those things, those stories exactly as I, my body remembered them.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And it wasn't coming through someone else, which is, you know, fabulous to be outside of it as well, but then to sort of embody it. And the way that you remember it and then those things that were, those nuances that were so important to you. And it's like you saw so and so over there talking about somebody else. And so when I was like mothers in the church, I was trying to be, I was all these people I remembered and not having to necessarily explain that to someone who's 18 years old.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: And you know, in a, you know, in a, in a university setting or being at clubs in the nineties, when, you know, I'm older than a lot of their parents.
Christy Bolingbroke: Well, I mean, and I'm glad you brought it back to the club because you know, hearing you talk about your artistic point of view and movement aesthetic, I'm reminded of what you said about being the little kid who, who would always say like, Oh, this is the latest dance. Right? That was you embodying a moment, a story that maybe has become oversimplified now because it's Lady Gaga's “Abracadabra.” It's the latest thing that's gone viral in a small way, but the liveness of performance to, to be able to share those embodied stories, uh, so that they don't get erased, so that they don't disappear in the noise. That really came forward and, and I was reminded of that you brought up food. I'm always good for a food metaphor. Let's bring on the gumbo. 'Cause some people I've, I, I you know, have cooked with some folks who come from maybe more a straight STEM approach, a scientific approach. The recipe is gospel. They will not deviate from the recipe. It's like it is a science experiment. I feel you have found a similar way of curiosity and play and I'm, I'm wondering where do you find the opportunity to be creative in baking and how is that the same or different in dance making?
Joe Bowie: I've been curious about recently with baking in particular and bread baking. Because bread baking is built on four ingredients. And so there's a magical part of how they are manipulated, handled temperatures and percentages that can change a flavor, that can change a speed of fermentation and how it moves. Um, that can change the quality of and the feel of the dough. And so I was thinking about that because I'm not a STEM person, but I am a sciencey, sciencey guy. I do like the sort of precision, everyone says, Oh, baking is so precise. I think that that's a little bit. Um, I think it's a little bit simplistic.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: Um, because I think that, you know, we deal with what, like you were saying, like sometimes things turn out really well, other times they don’t. You know, there's failure. You learn from your, you learn just like if we're making a pot of gumbo and it's too salty, we, we can put cream or we can do something that we can do. If I put too much salt in bread, it won't ferment. So we start again.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And so there's this really cool thing about like, I can manipulate and deal with and touch and get something completely different to materialize from these four things. And I like that idea of starting simply and then having it more become more complex as I move through it. For me, that's really creative. I mean, I think that over the years, I have, like, even when I write and things, I don't tend to sort of free write. I'm not very good at, you know, this sort of thing. Like, I remember trying to do like the artist's way years ago and the pages every day and I would just sit, write. It was just it just wasn't me. But I can pull up a feeling and a situation. And I have a good memory, you know, not good for now, but I can pull it up in a way that feels visceral. And it, when it's visceral, it's easy for me to write about. And when I, I do this thing and when I'm baking, even if it's a recipe that's familiar to me, I still get the creativity is like this intuitive place.You know, I still get someone's voice saying, that's enough orange zest (Bolingbroke: Mm). You know, even though the recipe costs for this amount, it's like…
Christy Bolingbroke: Right.
Joe Bowie: You know, I wanted a little bit more, or a little bit more vanilla paste or like all these things. It's like, and there's something that, this knowing, and I don't know if it's because I've, it's a practice and I've been doing it for a long time, excuse me, for a long time. Or if it's just, if there are outside influences, I know there are ancestors. I get a lot of words and a lot of ideas from, I think grandmother and great-grandmother in particular on my mom's side, maternal, but (Bolingbroke: Mmm) the creativity is intuition. It is, knowing when to stop.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hearing you say that it's intuition, even when you were dancing and assisting, you know, mark on an opera otherwise, and saying like, you always knew how to put things together. Because you had also practiced, you know, that wasn't like the first, you know, invitation that he did your first day on the job. It was after years. I think what I'm hearing inside of this is practice longevity. Which I think also in our sort of like quick society turnover, Oh my God, I've been doing this for, you know, three years and I'm nowhere so far. And you're like, Oh my God, three years we're just getting started (Bowie: Right). And that's in ever fast changing times and managing our own personal expectations as well as others' expectations. It's a lot to build up that intuition. To trust yourself (Bowie: That’s right). That's what I hear. Like, all right, I will give my hand another try at baking bread. I need to do better to trust myself. Okay. All right. Joe said so.
Joe Bowie: You can always call him with questions because I love talking about bread. I wrote a score, a, a dance score, a movement score for bread baking, when I was in grad school, 'cause we did this, transforming materiality and materials. So I taught my cohort how to mix and shape and scale and stuff. And then I, I baked it out, but, you know, so we spent the entire day, like we started off in the studio and we had the rest of the day. So we stretched and folded it throughout the day. I would be in my seminar. Who wants to do this? And someone, and I would teach them how to do it, and then I brought it home and shaped it and, um, baked it off and brought it. We had toast and butter and jam the next day (Bolingbroke: Amazing). Um, with, with what they had made and I wanted them to touch it. Some of it was really interesting. Some people really don't like to touch food. And, I mean, I'm, I'm generalizing, but kind of, I mean, it was, I was amazed by the people who were eager to get their hands in and those who were not (Bolingbroke: Mm). They were like, Mm-hm. You go right ahead. No, you go ahead and you do that. Um…
Christy Bolingbroke: They'll dance barefoot, but they wouldn't touch food.
Joe Bowie: I don't think it was about making sense. Some people just like, don't like it. Like, I don't like sticky stuff on my hands. I don't, you know, it's that. Sort of tactile thing. But I do believe that, like you said, it is a practice and it's, I, one of my, I think, ongoing challenges as a person who's been in the dance world for a long time, but not as a maker, there are times when I, I looked at, you know, you look at grants and things, it's like emergent, mid-career, all these things and all these labels that we can give ourselves or that they, that many funders expect us to give ourselves. And I'm like, what am I mid-emergent? I'm not a beginner in everything. But I am, in terms of like the number of dances, I haven't made much. Even though teachers would say like, Oh, but you've been, you've, you know, you've made, combinations for classes and stuff. It's like, Yeah, but that's not a dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: That had a functional purpose.
Joe Bowie: Exactly.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: That was eight counts of let's go across the floor. But yeah, so that's it. It, it is a challenge. And as someone who's, you know, turning 61 this year, I do go through like, Oh, does anyone want to hear the hear from someone who's my age? Most of what I post on social media are, is, are baked goods. You know, it's like, I, I'm not, I don't, I rarely post, I, I I don't push things forward as much as I could. A dear friend and former advisor from grad school who (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), Come on! Um, you like owning it.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: I have, I still have issues with owning it. I get very shy about that.
Christy Bolingbroke: But at the same time, what I want to share back with you as I had a fitness instructor who at the beginning of a class would ask like, Okay, any first timers. And always one or two people would raise their hand and he would share. Great. That means you have fewer bad habits. And so there is something to be said about being able to retain the beginner mindset as you continue to evolve through your longevity in this field. And I'm excited about that for you as we look forward to things still to come from Joe Bowie, I have one last question. Do you have a piece of advice that you've either received or you would like to offer for anyone who is looking to navigate a creative life?
Joe Bowie: Yes, in a way, I mean, I, I feel like it may not look the way you expected it to look.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Joe Bowie: And that can be your life. That can be something you've made or dance you're making. That can be a class you go to. That can be something that you thought you were supposed to do your whole life. I was supposed to be a doctor. I, um, dancing was not part of the plan. And so I. Every time that I got the opportunity to say like, Oh, I'm in, I I love this. This is where I'm looking. Or, and then when I be, you know, this is, I, I need to do this because this is not what I expected it to be, but this is where this is, this is it right now.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And so I allowed myself to sort of look in that direction and be okay with it. Not, not knowing how it was gonna turn out, because it wasn't necessarily. A creative life is full of risks.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Joe Bowie: And I think that it could be sort of risky in many fields, but speaking artistically, it's full of risks. You put yourself out there all the time. I wouldn't say you have to develop a thick skin, but I think you have to develop a very firm belief in the importance of what you're doing. And as I said, even when I get really insecure, or I can, I can still say I still think these stories need to be told from my point of view. I just think it's not gonna always turn out the way you expect. It's cliche to say, but I think there's truth. You learn more from failure. And the politics of failure and, and calling it failure is maybe just a misnomer, but it's an, it's an opportunity. Like you were saying, this beginner's mindset means that everything that happens, even if it gets great reviews or not reviews, or no one sees it or whatever, you still have this opportunity each time to begin again. And that's not always the case for most people.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm.
You know, not everyone gets to begin again. Some people don't, don't know that they can. And the awareness as a creative mind that you are creating this every step of the way. You are creating this and it, and it's, it's, you know, I don't know what people would, is it Eckhart Tolle or something like, but I still believe that I, I take responsibility for my my contribution. For young people, I would say take responsibility early (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). It's easy to look out and say, and especially in this very frontal world of social media where we are like looking out for likes and whatever, like how many times it be, how many followers I have, how many things, and so you start looking outside of yourself for validation when, when you turn all that off, if you ever do. This is the only thing that you actually have and you're always moving from here. The other ones will not sustain you in the same way. This is the place from which you have to begin. And so you are creating this all the time. Creative spirit, creative mind, those things are always happening. They're fluid. They are, you can't hold them.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Joe Bowie: And that's, I mean, that's exciting. It's scary and exciting. Um, so I would just say don’t, feel the, you know, it's like feel the fear and do it anyway, kind of thing. But kind of. Like I really like the idea of us just sitting in, I am doing this, I'm creating this. I will look forward and move forward with that as my goal, my mantra is that I'm in charge of this. Like who's in charge? I'm actually in charge.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Joe Bowie: Um, and you're in charge. Like we're, and that's the wonderful thing is because when you come at it that way, then you learn to respect other people being in charge of their lives as well.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Joe Bowie: And so that's when you can collaborate from that point. It’s like, Yeah, you have, I don't need to be in charge of you. We can make decisions about how we work together. Rather than just like, I'm the one thing and I worked for people who were the only thing (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). As you know, it can be a very lonely life to be the only thing. So I would say just continue to like work from a place of you and be prepared for surprises.
Jennifer Edwards: Inside the Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is produced by NCCAkron and supported in part by the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation, the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts, and Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio.’ Our podcast program is produced by Lisa Niedermeyer of Handmade Future Studio. Rahsaan Cruz is our audio engineer, with transcription by Arushi Singh, theme music by Floco Torres, and cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Sarah Durham, Christi Welter, Nakiasha Moore-Dunson, and Dante Fields. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.