In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with San Francisco-based choreographer Nicole Klaymoon. Klaymoon is the Founder and Artistic Director of the Embodiment Project, whose recent work includes a piece titled “Ancient Children”, which explores the ways restorative justice can interrupt the school-to-prison pipeline. This conversation was her second engagement at the Center, as she is an alumna of NCCAkron's Dancing Lab: Screendance that took place in July 2018.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with San Francisco-based choreographer Nicole Klaymoon. Klaymoon is the Founder and Artistic Director of the Embodiment Project, whose recent work includes a piece titled “Ancient Children”, which explores the ways restorative justice can interrupt the school-to-prison pipeline. This conversation was her second engagement at the Center, as she is an alumna of NCCAkron's Dancing Lab: Screendance that took place in July 2018.
https://www.embodimentproject.org
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside the Dancer’s Studio where we bring listeners, like you, closer to the creative process. Inside the Dancer’s Studio is a program of The National Center for Choreography at The University of Akron, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded as a closed dialogue, via Zoom, at the beginning of the 2020 pandemic. Today we join Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive / Artistic Director in conversation with San Francisco-based choreographer Nicole Klaymoon. Klaymoon is the Founder and Artistic Director of the Embodiment Project, whose recent work includes a piece titled “Ancient Children”, which explores the ways restorative justice can interrupt the school-to-prison pipeline. This conversation was her second engagement at the Center, as she is an alumna of NCCAkron's Dancing Lab: Screendance that took place in July 2018.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How or when did you know you wanted to be a choreographer?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: There is a specific moment I’m remembering where I felt a very deep fire in my being and it was when I was in undergrad. And I was in a class with, that Rennie Harris was teaching, and he was really generous with talking about his experience professionally and the landscape of dance in a way that I was really hungry for, you know. Just getting the opportunity to work with an artist that was really doing work. And he had mentioned, if I’m remembering correctly, something to the effect of, you know, many choreographers take the, the route of performing with professional companies for many years and kind of learning the ropes in the industry and getting more of the experience as a, as a dancer within a company, and then at some point in, there’s a maturational growth step where they decide to become, to start their own company, or do their own work. And then he was, like, and then there are other choreographers that just do the damn thing, that, like, skip that step. And it’s, and I just remember hearing that and I was like, this voice inside of me, like, ‘yep, I’m gonna do that. I’m just gonna figure it out and do it.’ I just remember this like, my whole body being activated. And, you know, I came to dance in the stu, in a more of a studio or, like, institutionalized way of training. Like, relatively later in my life, you know, I didn't, like, grow up training in, in, in studios. It was always, like, a social dance. And, and so I had always felt behind, especially because there was, being, what was being modeled was, you know, in order to be a, you know, do this as a profession in the U.S., it’s like through Eurocentric forms, i.e. Ballet, Modern. And so what I was being exposed to was, you know, you had to start really young and, and that, that wasn’t my trajectory. So, so at the time I was kind of surprised like, ‘oh, I'm going to really, you know, step into this.’ But you know that fire, and that calling just, it, I just felt something in my spirit in that moment. But I think that’s the most poignant that I can remember.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I, I love that also because that it sounds that Rennie, there were suggested two different options, right?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Uh-huh.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And that’s something else that Eurocentric forms are like, ‘well, this is the way we do it.’ Right, and, and that also kind of seems to perpetuate is it a, a corporate or capitalist idea of a structure of a, a ladder and a single way forward. So, I also kind of, can observe that’s what would resonate with you. Like, ‘yep, I’m gonna do that thing.’ I love it. So how do you start, right? When you, you are going to make a new piece? What inspires you? Is it music? Is it an idea? Is it something else entirely? Where do you begin?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: So, I often realize years later that I had already started. And I wasn’t conscious of it, I just, you know, started. Well, with the artistic process, I'm really led by the mystery, I think, in the mystery of the creative process and being really responsive to the, the narratives in the body that I get to collaborate with. And what’s relevant in that moment that’s, like what stories are really ripe and ready to be told within that, that really arise as a, I think, result of, like, the trust that I get to build with the artists and, you know, always reinforcing that we each have agency in regard to what stories we want to tell and when we’re ready to tell and how we want to tell them. Do we want to do it, you know, just through the body, or do we want to be more explicit with language, with image? So, I do a lot of surrendering to just what’s in the moment, and what’s present with, and alive, within the artists that I am working with. And that is just like a very deep process of discovering, ‘well what are we saying and how do these personal stories relate to a bigger story that’s, you know, about specific social justice issues that we work with.’ And so, and then sometimes I start, that’s usually simultaneously I’m doing a lot of research through interviews and conversations and documentaries and reading on specific subjects. And sometimes they’re really far-reaching dots. Like, how, how can this translate in movement, it has been a very interesting process, and sometimes it’s felt kind of disparate. Like where I really appr, where it’s more per, the movement is more personal and then my research might be, you know, you know, on a, on a specific subject that I am trying to figure out how they link together. And then I guess my creative process I, I work a, I move very inspired by music and kind of link to the essence of like the energetic essence. Oftentimes, the song if we’re creating an ensemble piece, the actual song I don’t always have when I start the piece. I’m more in the energetics of the piece and figuring out which being in the work is kind of holding this, the focal point of this story. It’s like a, a, a movement narrator of sorts.And then, and so I’ll work with move, or music that’s totally oftentimes like dissonant with the, the work just to kind of and, get a sense of how to find the edges energetically. So, there’s certain music I, I work with a lot to get inspiration and to like, I work a lot with in process, with poetry. You know, doing the piece to, even if I know it’s gonna eventually be to a song we might, or you know to music, you might, we might start it to a recording of a poem or, you know, sometimes we’ll bring in music that’s just like totally unrelated but just kind of helps to, to draw out the energies of the piece.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah, I’m so glad that you brought up the poetry and and spoken work aspect too. Cause sometimes that also makes it into the sound score of the piece. And you, you were actually the artist that introduced me to the term of “choreopoetry.” Would you care to elaborate on, on what that is a little bit and how that adds some sort of sound element too?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Sure. My relationship to that term, or my interpretation of what choreopoetry is is really the intersection of movement and poetry that’s spoken live. So, finding where, where is the movement leading, propelling the message, and where is the language. And, you know, how can dance speak and how can language move and where, and how can they intersect in ways that doesn’t, in, inside of the body in a way that doesn’t, one doesn’t override. It’s not just like putting movement as filler, but if the, if the language is leading, what’s happening with the body? Like, is the body moving, you know, in harmony with the syllables as though it’s like a lyrical piece that’s spoken live? Or is the body dissonant and in contrast, like, maybe the, the language is spoken really fast, but the body’s moving slow. And how, how can movement animate the language so, you know, that experience with poetry where it’s like, you can actually see the language hanging in the air like a metaphor, an image that’s like alive. Like the poem is living in the atmosphere. Like how does the poem actually live in the body. Where did the words move physically? Is this poem coming from your heart, your center, your elbow? And, and really finding that sweet spot of that marriage of those two forms inside of the body has been a really exciting journey. Especially working with, specifically popping. Which is so much about presentation and illusion and so much specificity and isolation.I’m really intrigued by how language can serve in that, like how popping can, can be a container for language of sorts. Or if, or if movement is the subtext of the words. Sometimes we explore that with embodying monologues that are rooted in documentary theater. So how does the movement actually disrupt the, the language and show, you know, maybe the story that’s spoken live, you know, where does, like, language can only take it so far I think and somehow when those two forms are coupled together in a way that’s, that is really aligned, it can, it can kind of show where movement, what movement serves to do that is beyond what the, the confines of language. That is what we’re striving for.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes, and it’s felt too. You know, by having you sort of dissect the approach to it tells me so much about my own experience as a viewer when having gotten to see your performances. One of the biggest creative challenges, and I think that this goes for people whether they’re writing a book or a poem or making a dance, how do you name a dance? What’s your process?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: That’s so funny. My relationship to titles has been, it’s just been such an interesting challenge that I appreciate. Often, for me, takes a lot of back and forth with community. And with my intimate collaborators. Because I’ve come up with some titles and run it by people and people are like, ‘what?’ Like, ‘no.’ And so I, I think, like there’s like a very, in kind of insipid stages of titling, I’ve either had experiences where the title came right away, or a title has, this is what’s so fascinating about the great mystery of the creative process. How something can feel so right one day and then the next day feel just not like, ‘what was I thinking, but I needed to experience that sense of rightness and alignment as like a steppingstone to get to the next place.’ So, it kind of unveils another layer. So oftentimes I'll use titles as stakeholders and then just, the title will kind of in, let me know with time. Like, it’s almost like the title chooses the piece. Like, like a, the landing, like I’ll, I’ll, I like to give myself time to, to like let it land and see if it’s really, is right. But the, sometimes, like, I’ll just give myself the space to just be like, ‘ok I’m not really sure about this title, but right now we’re, we’re gonna stick with it.’ And then, you know, a month later, it’ll be like, ‘ok, now it’s, like, really landed.’ And it’s living inside of the artists and we’re, we’re connecting to it. So that’s when I choose it. I don’t normally, just, I give it time to. But it can, it can be, I, I also if it’s not there, like, if I don’t feel like I have a title yet, I’d rather just not be titled. I’d rather, I don’t like to just put something on that doesn’t feel right, you know? And that can be a little tricky with like the production deadlines and all the things cause so many, so much of our, of our process is like, I’m in the moment like what is, what is the line if the ending of the piece hasn’t revealed itself yet.Like, we will stay in the unknown, maybe it’s the 11th hour that we figure that out, but we’ll, we’ll be in that space of unknown until it, until it feels right.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I love the idea that, that the title doesn’t have to be so finite, that it, it also has some room to evolve with the process. And, and that it, it could, you could say, it doesn’t fit anymore, you know, and give yourself that permission. Also related to the process not being linear, what do you do when you’re in a creative rut?
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Well, I like to ex, reframe ‘block’ as there are obstacles that are purifying the path. So instead of energizing the rut, it’s like, ‘ok this is, how can I create a space of spaciousness inside of myself to embrace that something is moving?’ It might be in the subterranean layers of my being and I’m not conscious of it yet, but to just trust the process of just, oftentimes things that feel like a obstacle internally or a block are manifest as, like, resistance that I can, I, I really like to work with internally. And really try to distill it down, like, what is this really about? Is this about my fear? Is this, is this fear because it’s not aligned. This choice isn’t aligned, or is this the, the tear that’s an indicator of like stepping into something expansive that’s just, I’m just weathering a storm on the inside of what comes up for me around taking a stride or taking a risk. Those are usually what feel like ruts to me. And then to, there’s another way I like to do like really working with relationship, like I mean I’m so grateful that our practice is community based and so relational because if I’m, you know, feeling like stagnant or feeling some paralysis, engaging someone that I have a artistic relationship with that we might session together, or be accountability buddies, we’re just gonna free write every morning or kind of create practices in community that can support in moving through that energy’s been really helpful.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Nice. I, I feel we’ve alluded to a couple of different things that you, you’ve kind of aware of and navigating sometimes working intention with, like Eurocentric institutions in dance, making space that elevates social dance practices. But what does the term ‘21st century dance practices,’ what does that sort of bring forward for you? I mean, you accepted the invitation to come teach as part of it, so I hope there was some sort of resonance. I’m wondering how you might define that as a maker in this moment.
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Uh-huh, absolutely. Well, I think, I think the times that we’re in are really showing us that, you know, it’s all of these racial disharmonies that have been present for centuries are really being more visible and there’s a, a real opportunity here to be visualizing a new world. And these institutions that, you know, these policies that are perpetuating injustices, if we distill that down to the racism underneath that and really see that there is, if we’re not trying to subvert the system. And for those of us that are racialized as white that are benefitting from these systems, then that is perpetuating this racist ideology that has, I think, got us into this situation in the first place in regard to the Earth just being like, ‘nope, we’re gonna slow down. It’s not business as usual. This is time to really imagine what could a new world be for us. And what, and to take, to, to lift up the voices of folks that are, are really leaders in that.’ And, and I think that, with the 21st century practices, to me that’s like what’s, what is our future and what can, what is historically the role of dance in that dance has always been, you know, artists have always been essential in the revolution and especially when we’re talking about, like, dismantling white supremacy. I really love how Resmaa Menakem, who's the author of ‘Grandmother’s Hands,’ ‘Grandma's Hands,’ talks about white supremacy as white body supremacy. That that lives in our bodies and these historical traumas live in our body. So how can we be challenging white supremacy in a way that is, is working with our bodies and, and what does dance, what does the future of dance as a, the capacity and the inherent medicine of dance to be, you know, transmitting the consciousness of our bodies, and unveiling those, those stories that have been invisibilized. And so, I think that the, I know this is a long-winded response, but I, I think that the 21st century of practices for me is, is really about how can dance be really, re, like, held as sacred, as what it is. And, and how can we challenge, you know, the ways that white supremacy permeates the concert dance landscape and all of these institutions to, to break that down and find a new way so that dance can be shared and, and celebrated as something that is gonna be, you know, get us through and, and incite humanity in our time.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Now, I, a, a lot of that resonates I think in, in designing 21st Century Dance Practices. We’re definitely trying to push past, the, the what had been prioritized as the aesthetics that then prevails in 20th century. That, that continues to perpetuate white body centered practices. Or, you know, work. And, and it, I might also offer the sort of holistic perspective that you brought in, it was like, ‘oh a 21st century dance practice isn’t about an aesthetic, but it’s about who we are in the world. In our communities and how we want to navigate that sort of embracing the politics of the dancing body first as opposed to that being a subtext that we weren’t acknowledging or prioritizing.’ And so, so, I loved your response. I have one more question though.
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Ok, sure.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I’m curious, in making, for someone who wants to make a creative life, what is the best piece of advice that you have ever received, or would you like to offer a piece of advice in, instead of passing one on? But offer one of your own to anyone who’s looking to develop and, and make their own creative life moving forward.
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Well, I’ll keep this concise because I have many things I’d love to share here. I think that something that has really served me is the understanding that no means not now. And that no is actually a really positive thing. Rejection, you know, it’s part of the, the, if the door is, doesn’t feel like it’s opening, to not take that personal. Because that is a, that has just, rejection has been what has, I think is oftentimes, if, from myself trying to reframe that as a initiation or an opportunity to like, ‘how am I gonna respond to this rejection and find that inside of myself instead of looking externally for, oh, this, this opportunity or this opening means that the, my work is valid.’ But how can I cultivate that for myself and, and to just really stay in conversation with, with other artists that are doing, you know, that, whose work is in resonance with your own and to have that, those relationships and that intimacy because it’s a very vulnerable path to try to put ourselves out there in this way. And the, the strength of having folks that, and, you know, that really get it and can, you know, be with you in it has been invaluable to me. And, you know, cultivating practices of, just holding strong to your own, your own creative inquiries and what is calling your spirit. Like how to really nurture that because, you know, everybody's gonna have an opinion and want to tell you what they think and all those things so how to really stay strong in ourself, to have that strong sense of, you know, that calling. Like, ‘why, why do I have these questions?’ And, and creating that space inside of ourselves, I think, is really essential to, to be able to, you know, have sustainability and longevity. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. I so love, just to comment, that being true to yourself doesn’t mean that you have to isolate yourself. Right? That that kind of tension to be in dialogue or concert with others whose work resonates with you too, you know. Sometimes you don’t know something about yourself until you are seen in context, and, and that’s another form of feedback. And as someone who has had the privilege of being in it with you for some time, to be part of your journey, I’m so grateful for that. And we can continue that together. So…
NICOLE KLAYMOON: Me too.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Thank you very much Nicole Klaymoon.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside the Dancer’s Studio lunchtime talk series is supported by NCCAkron, The University of Akron, The University of Akron Foundation, and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards, Ellis Rovin is our composer and editor, transcription by Madeline Greenberg, theme music by Flocco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus, and Julian Curet and Kat Wentz are our artist coordinators. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thank you for listening and stay curious.