In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with New York City-based Visually Impaired choreographer, Christopher “Unpezverde” Núñez. Núñez has been awarded Fellowships by Princeton University, The Jerome Foundation, Dance/USA and Leslie-Lohman Museum of Art. His performances have been presented in New York by The Joyce Theater, The Brooklyn Museum, and The Kitchen, among others. While he received his American Citizenship in 2023, Núñez continues to be an advocate for the rights of undocumented disabled immigrants.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with New York City-based Visually Impaired choreographer, Christopher “Unpezverde” Núñez. Núñez has been awarded Fellowships by Princeton University, The Jerome Foundation, Dance/USA and Leslie-Lohman Museum of Art. His performances have been presented in New York by The Joyce Theater, The Brooklyn Museum, and The Kitchen, among others. While he received his American Citizenship in 2023, Núñez continues to be an advocate for the rights of undocumented disabled immigrants.
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography in Akron, Ohio, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists in 2023-2024. Today we joined Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive/Artistic Director, in conversation with New York City-based Visually Impaired choreographer, Christopher “Unpezverde” Núñez. Núñez has been awarded Fellowships by Princeton University, The Jerome Foundation, Dance/USA and Leslie-Lohman Museum of Art. His performances have been presented in New York by The Joyce Theater, The Brooklyn Museum, and The Kitchen, among others. While he received his American Citizenship in 2023, Núñez continues to be an advocate for the rights of undocumented disabled immigrants.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: When did you begin to own the term choreographer? Was there a moment that you declared yourself or (Núñez: Hmm) that you sort of discovered this is who I am?
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Hmm. Hmm. You know, Christy, I don't remember ever wanting to be a choreographer (Bolingbroke: Mmm). It just happened. I remember not having many options in life as a visually impaired person (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And choreography became my world, basically because it was a welcoming space, a welcoming space to me and my disability. So I learned to love dance, because it embraced me (Bolingbroke: Hmm), like family. And I wanted to be many things like any child, you know, as a teenager, I wanted to be an architect, I wanted to be a police officer, I wanted to be a doctor. But those things were not accessible to me (Bolingbroke: Hmm) because of my disability. And people didn't know much about visual impairment back in the 80s, back in the 90s. And so again, I kept coming back to dance and choreography as a way to explore my body with my disability in relationship to the space and then it became an expressive, you know, tool for me (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And then when I realized I was a full-time choreographer, so I, I feel that that choreography or dance chose me, instead of me choosing it.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mmm. It's so unique to hear what your experience has been is what I love about this series (Núñez: Hmm), and I just want to reflect back you say like dance embraced you (Núñez: Yes). Hearing you talk about being visually impaired (Núñez: Mm-hmm), it also seems like you found a way to embrace your body (Núñez: Mmm) and a way to exercise it (Núñez: Mmm). pun perhaps intended (Núñez: Yes), through dance as well (Núñez: Yes). So it seems like a very reciprocal, relate, you know, a hug, (Núñez: Yes), if you will.
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Yeah, we were holding each other's hands. Yes. Yes.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I love acknowledging that as well (Núñez: Hmm) that the disability (Núñez: Hmm) is not something to overcome, but it's something that sort of heightened a connection in another way (Núñez: Yes. Yes, absolutely). Thinking super-sensorily: how would you describe your creative relationship to music then? (Núñez: Hmm) When does that play a role in your choreographic practice?
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Well, I think my relationship to everything in, in my practice, has, has a very human experience feeling to it. And this is not only music or sound is also the lighting design, for example, the costumes. When I talk to my lighting designers, they're always fascinated by this idea of how can we make light at the service of the dancers (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And I'm not so interested, interested in the way lighting design looks like, or the aesthetics, the visual aesthetics of lighting. I'm, I’m trying to replicate sunlight, for example, how can we use light to mimic the sunlight to help the dancers produce vitamin D, for example (Bolingbroke: Mmm). So there is a scientific approach to it (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). Because the dancers that I work with, they usually have, like a disability background, like an immigration background, marginalized communities that are exhausted, you know, live under oppression. So when they come into the studio, they bring all this baggage (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And my practice with sound, for example, has to do with how can we help the dancers reenergize? How can we make it to the end of the rehearsal, without harming or hurting our bodies even more? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) And so the sound, especially in this world, right now, that is over stimulating (Bolingbroke: Yes), we are over stimulated, my composer uses Indigenous instruments to get closer to the 432 frequency, which is the closest frequency to the human body.
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: And a lot of people come to me after the shows, and they say, I feel so relaxed with the music. But it's not really about relaxing. Its more, we are so overstimulated that we don't know how to feel ourselves in this neutral space (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And so people come into the shows, and they experience this, this sense of in-between space where they can experience the dance with no kind of, you know, I'm not, I'm not interested in triggering psychological or emotional responses with sound. I'm really looking for people to just sit and be objective and enjoy the experience of dance (Bolingbroke: Mmm) from a neutral space. (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And I do this for the audience. But I do this for the dancers as well. Everything that I do in my practice is for the dancers primarily. How can the sound and the light and the costumes, really help the dancers reenergize and get to this place where they can really work their bodies, and maybe even heal (Bolingbroke: Mmm) some of the trauma of being a dancer, you know? (Bolingbroke: Mmm)
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hearing you talk about how you relate to sound is then reminding me of my experience, seeing your work, very intimate, very ambient, atmospheric (Núñez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm), even (Núñez: Mm-hmm). And I happen to be very close to the musician (Núñez: Mmm), and they were performing with lots of natural elements (Núñez: Yes. Yes) that were brought into the space. Whether they were bone or wood (Núñez: Mm-hmm) and different things that I, I resisted. I did not touch (Núñez laughs). Ah you know, I behaved myself. But that's something else that it is also speaking to the experience (Núñez: Mmm) that when I think about how many of our performance spaces might be the shiniest newest technology (Núñez: Hmm. Hmm). It's very polished. It's not very human (Núñez: Hmm. Hmm). And what is it to be a dancer or a performer (Núñez:: Hmm) and an audience member (Núñez: Hmm) in those kinds of spaces (Núñez: Hmm. Hmm), as opposed to the environment (Núñez: Hmm) that it sounds like you're trying to prioritize for both performers (Núñez: Hmm) and the audience (Núñez: Hmm), exp-experience as well.
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Well it's, it's always there is the question about technology and the role of technology in making art. And we try to work on this new idea of, you know, identity and heritage in relationship to what it's available to us now (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And, you know, bones and wood, those are forms of technology as well, technology from life, right? Evolution (Bolingbroke: Yes). And so it means that we can also use technology handmade by men to make something beautiful as well, or something that has a different purpose (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) than, you know, than the usual, you know, meaning that we give to technology, which is work (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). We use technology to work, to be more productive to, you know, it's always in relationship to hyper-productivity (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So my composer is always in this, you know, conversation with technology, and how can we use technology in relationship to our indigenal background? And how can we be indigenous in the twenty-first century (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), right? So that, that's the experience with, with sound and but especially sound that is rescued in a way from, you know, traditions, oral traditions that are disappearing (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And it's my gift as an immigrant as well as an indigenous people from Central America, I wanted to bring some of my culture to the States or to Turtle Island, to show other forms of indigenous heritage (Bolingbroke: Hmm) in the US. And people, people have different reactions. Thank you for not touching them. But people are welcome to touch everything. My shows are also a haptic experience, meaning that at the end, people can touch the costumes, the musical instruments, even the bodies of the dancers, if they allow them to touch (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) their bodies, because so much of the people that come to my show are blind or visually impaired, or, you know, across disabilities, neurodivergent people that need more information to understand the idea, deaf people that didn't get some of the text (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) in the audio description that is embedded in my performances as well. So there is always an after, there is always a performance after the performance, which is the haptic experience too.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hmm. Yes. Oh, my goodness. Well, you already hinted at this a little bit.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How would you define what is 21st Century Dance Practices?
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Uh that is such a rich and robust question. And I'm trying to go back to the everyday life. How do we live as humans in the 21st century, and then that's a reflection of my practice (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And to me, also, 21st century means reorganization, in a way we're all trying to reorganize ideas and justice and concepts and what it means to be equal or inclusive. And, to me, to be an artist in the 21st century means that you have to come to terms with disorder, and volatility sometimes and, and different ideas and different backgrounds. Every single country has an immigration crisis right now. Every, everyone is in a movement right now, which is a beautiful, romantic idea that comes with a lot of pain and baggage (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So how can we come to terms to these massive disorder, volatility, uncertainty, ambiguity, how can we come to terms and do something about it? (Bolingbroke: Mmm) Something that brings consciousness, something that brings, you know, community (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) and, and I believe that you know, art is a powerful tool to come together as a, as a community. But how can we develop the skills to be in the 21st century, in this moment with so much collusion and things happening, overstimulated, and take a moment to invite people to just sit and experience something (Bolingbroke: Mmm). That to me is what as an artist, you need to take a moment and, and just reflect (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) in your own practice.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: There's something beautiful about the, to be a 21st century dance-maker. And what you're talking about is also a reminder and an invitation for stillness (Núñez: Mm-hmm) or just slow down (Núñez: Yes) or that who, who knew that one of the most radical things we could do (Núñez: Hmm. Hmm) in these times is to invite people to show up for a live experience (Núñez: Hmm) at a specific day (Núñez: Hmm) and a specific time (Núñez: Hmm) and, and ask them to sit still, or at least present (Núñez: Hmm) for 60 to 70 minutes (Núñez laughs), without any inner, you know, intermissions. And they can't fast forward and they can't, you know (Núñez laughs), skip ahead or pause and, you know, do it you'll (Núñez: Yeah) all the agency that technology affords through (Núñez: Yeah) other mediums and entertainment, too (Núñez: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely). I love so much that I want to reflect back too that, I don't know if it's the latent architect inside of you, but there does seem to be some, some science (Núñez: Hmm) also that informs a lot of your thinking, too (Núñez: Yeah). And that, that seems interesting to me (Núñez: Mm-hmm) to think about what it is to be living in the now but also acknowledging indigeneity. (Núñez: Mm-hmm) Would you offer your own definition of Indigenous just to also I want to invite you to reorient us because I think a lot of times when people hear about Indigenous or culturally-rooted art-making (Núñez: Hmm. Hmm), they tend to think old, right? (Núñez laughs) Something else, another oral tradition (Núñez: Yeah), something that's been passed along (Núñez: Yeah), but there's such a vibrancy and a now-ness (Núñez: Yes) to how you're inhabiting it and talking about it (Núñez: Hmm). I'd love to hear you say more about that.
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: In Central America, for example, the way that we call indigenous people is the naturals (Bolingbroke: Mmm), the naturals to the land. And what's happening right now, especially with the impact of climate change is that people are moving across, not only the land, but the water as well (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And my people, the Miskito people from Central America, they were more water people, ocean people, they were fishermen, that was their, their main activity. And because of the climate change, they no longer have the relationship with the ocean. So it means to be indigenous right now from this specific part of the continent means not only moving to different places, because the space that they inhabit is no longer their home. But how can we shift our culture from being fisherman, what else can we be? (Bolingbroke: Hmm) And so I think about this relationship with water, and the ocean, and my own relationship to my body, and it becomes a translation, I feel (Bolingbroke: Hmm). It becomes a translation to reinterpret cultural oral traditions, narratives, colors, histories, bodies, photographs, I, as one thing that I do, for example, in my research process is I google, I go on eBay, I, you know, I use internet. Again, internet can be a powerful tool to find your (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) heritage as well (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So I try to look for photographs, old photographs of my community, anything, magazines, books, things that can give me some kind of background of how was life 200 years ago, 150 years ago, 100 years ago? And to me, the, the new identity as an Indigenous people as an Indigenous person is a researcher. We are becoming researchers of our own history. And as we're moving across countries and geographies and adopt, like myself ,new citizenships. I just became an American citizen six months ago (Bolingbroke: Congratulations), thank you, is how can I embrace my inner land in this outer land (Bolingbroke: Mmm) within my practice, as well? (Bolingbroke: Yes) My movement practice.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. Oh my god. So, so much in that that indigenous is not a categorization or a limitation (Núñez: Correct), but rather a reference point and, and yet a part of yourself (Núñez: Mm-hmm) that you can utilize in so many ways (Núñez: Mm-hmm) to stay, curious to refer back to (Núñez: Mm-hmm), to riff off of. And I'm thinking about dance as an oral tradition (Núñez: Mm-hmm), and then also in from in your role as a researcher too (Núñez: Mm-hmm) it in its own oral tradition (Núñez: Mm-hmm), because you're talking about things that predate the internet (laughs).
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Absolutely, yes. And, and again, in this, in this metaphor, this idea of the naturals of the land, because we're migrating, constantly migrating my, myself, I'm constantly migrating. How can I become natural to my land? (Bolingbroke: Hmm) How can I be natural to New York City or Lenapehoking? How can I be natural to the US? How can I understand the history and the context of the US as a country as an idea (Bolingbroke: Hmm) as a political idea, as an artistic idea? That's, you know, the challenge of embracing your own identity in a different context in a different place (Bolingbroke: Hmm), and how that informs your own practice. And so I know that there is a lot of exoticism in my work (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And many people that come, they refer to the musical instruments as artifacts, for example (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And I always tell people, they're not artifacts, because they were never meant to be displayed (Bolingbroke: Hmm). They were never meant to be in museums. And they were meant to be used, used to the point that you break them (Bolingbroke: Hmm), used to the point that they're no longer usable. So we always try to break the boundaries and the lines and the limits of exoticism and what is natural and what belongs here. The sense of belonging is also very important in my work, how can we make a space so that people feel that they belong?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I'm going to ask two more questions and there a little bit down to the weeds.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Sometimes you hit a roadblock (Núñez: Hmm), sometimes the creative juices aren't flowing, or the world at large, is not letting you access (Núñez: Mm-hmm) some of that beautiful (Núñez laughs) and generous space. Do you have any sort of practices to you know, sort of break out of a rut? If, if you're finding yourself like (Núñez: Hmm) this is your time to be creative today? Or, you know, you've got a premiere coming up, and that's looming large (Núñez: Mmm). Um do you have a practice that you would share about how you subvert those, those moments?
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: (Laughs). Well, you know, I'm a person of ideas. That's what I have (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). I have many ideas. I don't have many talents. But I do have many ideas (Bolingbroke: Oh that's interesting. Okay). So you know, everything that, everything that happens in my performances is orchestrated by me, but its created by incredible, incredibly talented people (Bolingbroke: Mmm). So my composer is always there to translate the ideas that I have, you know, from my head, my imagination to and make them like a material, tangible thing, tangible experience. And so, when I hit those moments, it's usually because the people around, the team of collaborators, we need to bring the energy back to this creative space. And sometimes you will, you have to let go certain ideas, you have to let go certain people (Bolingbroke: Mmm), at their prime (Bolingbroke: Mmm), not because, not because we no longer want to work together, collaborate together, but maybe because the relationship came to a point in which we don't have any more material to be working on. And it's okay to let go people, it's okay to let go the dancers, it's okay to let go the composer. That's the reason maybe, maybe that's the reason why I'm so hesitant to have a dance company (Bolingbroke: Mmm). And you know, the dancers come and go, they go for two years, they come back, then I have new dancers and I have a new composer, then I have a new designer. I feel that the energy has to be flowing all the time. It's like water, right? (Bolingbroke: Yeah) And even my own energy. And when I get to the point that my ideas don't make sense anymore, I know that I have the right team of people to tell me (Bolingbroke: Mmm-hmm), your ideas are not making sense anymore (both laugh). And I trust them. So those are my practices. They're very, like realistic practices (Bolingbroke: Mmm-hmm). I don't, I don't think another thing that people, you know, especially with indigenous choreographers is that people have this misconception that everything is ritualistic, everything is sacred. And, no it’s not (Bolingbroke: Okay) (Both laugh). Sometimes we just make decisions based on business, you know (Bolingbroke: Yeah), make, make based on, you know, the financial realities of making art, right?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Based on you know, the building said you can't have a fire permit (Núñez: Exactly. Exactly). Yeah. Whatever that…
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: That’s right. And there is nothing sacred about that (Bolingbroke: Yeah). It's just, you know, again, trying to be natural to the context and the geography and the rules and, you know, especially working in New York City with so many churches like (Bolingbroke: Mmm) the Judson or Danspace in St. Mark's, those are historical buildings, and you have to be very careful about the things that you do in those spaces (Bolingbroke: Hmm). It obviously is a religious space, is, there that religious architecture of an idea, which is religion in, you know, conversation with my indigenous background, and how do you work in those spaces with this (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) kind of, you know, conflict of relationships throughout history (Bolingbroke: Yeah), right? So yeah, I mean, you find the ways to get out of those spaces in which you feel the block or you feel that this idea is no longer juicy. These you know…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-hmm. I'm, I’m hearing also in your design of practices and non-company (Núñez: Mm-hmm) (Núñez laughs), we'll call it, is that, like water, it defies any one vessel or container (Núñez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). And, and that gives you actually so much space (Núñez: Mm-hmm) to continue to evolve and adapt (Núñez: Mm-hmm) what you're working on, instead of the fixed idea of, I'm making a 70-minute dance piece (Núñez: Mm-hmm). I'm going to always have five dancers, you know, forever. It's that sort of rigidity (Núñez: Mmm) in some of the things about containers (Núñez: Mmm) that makes them foregone conclusions for us (Núñez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). My last question, what advice would you want to share for anyone who is looking to take on a creative career now?
CHRISTOPHER NÚÑEZ: Jonathan Hollander, the Artistic Director of Battery Dance Company, came to one of my rehearsals maybe 10 years ago. And in my rehearsals I had audio description practices and masking tape on the floor to you know, to find myself in the space because of my visual impairment. And that was part of the process (Bolingbroke: Hmm). That was never in the final product. And Jonathan Hollander came to the rehearsal, and he said, your process is beautiful. Your process is the work (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And from that moment, I started to incorporate these little things that I was doing for myself in the performance (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And they became some kind of, you know, symbol of, of the things that I do (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). They became very symbolic. And they're now part of the artistic practice. So yes, embracing your process as your work is one of them. And the other advice that somebody told me at some point was, beauty has an expiration date (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And it's coming from a very specific context, in my formal years as, as, you know, training to become a professional dancer, I feel that everyone was very concerned about the beauty of dance and the perfection and the technique, and the tricks and the physical skills. And you work very hard to, to obtain those, and it's beautiful, you know, to see a dancer at their prime in their training. But once that you get to that point, everything comes down (Bolingbroke: Hmm). There is an expiration date for that beauty. So my advice to dance artists is see beyond that beauty (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And come to terms with everything that you think is problematic in dance (Bolingbroke: Yeah). Like the time like the space, like the disorder, like the volatility (Bolingbroke: The relationship to aging), the relationship to aging. Yeah, the, you know, all those things that because beauty, beauty requires organization and structure and discipline to thrive. And sometimes you can thrive, finding yourself in different places than beauty (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So look for those places that are not beautiful, like, obviously beautiful. I'm talking about a very specific kind of beauty. So those are my advices because at some point, especially when you're aging, and beauty has an expiration date, what else do you offer the community (Bolingbroke: Hmm), from your experience in your background more than beyond the beauty beyond the beauty of the training and the body and the skills, what else? And so right now at 44, you know, I was, I was never the most beautiful dancer. I was never the most beautiful dancer, I can tell you that. But right now at 44 I feel that my practice is so robust (Bolingbroke: Hmm) that I have this community of people always working and, and ready to try new ideas. And it's so beautiful to see the ideas that you created by yourself alone in the studio, and now you see people in different cities in different countries practicing it, and it's just incredible.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside The Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation, the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts, and Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. James Sleeman is our editor, transcription by Arushi Singh. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Sarah Durham, and Will Blake. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at NCCakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Please share with your friends and if you’d like to help get the word out rate us and leave a review on Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay curious.