In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with San Francisco, CA-based performer, choreographer, and teacher, James Graham. James dances with Lisa Wymore & Sheldon Smith’s Disappearing Acts, the Joe Goode Performance Group, and is the founder of James Graham Dance Theatre. This conversation was his second engagement with the Center, as he participated in the 2019 NCCAkron Dancing Lab: Dance as Cultural Diplomat, a multi-day symposium exploring the exchange between Israeli and American modern dance.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with San Francisco, CA-based performer, choreographer, and teacher, James Graham. James dances with Lisa Wymore & Sheldon Smith’s Disappearing Acts, the Joe Goode Performance Group, and is the founder of James Graham Dance Theatre. This conversation was his second engagement with the Center, as he participated in the 2019 NCCAkron Dancing Lab: Dance as Cultural Diplomat, a multi-day symposium exploring the exchange between Israeli and American modern dance.
http://jamesgrahamdancetheatre.com
Also referenced in this episode: https://lizlerman.com/hiking-the-horizontal/
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside the Dancer’s Studio where we bring listeners, like you, closer to the creative process. Inside the Dancer’s Studio is a program of The National Center for Choreography at The University of Akron, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded as a closed dialogue, via Zoom, at the beginning of the 2020 pandemic. Today we join Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive / Artistic Director in conversation with San Francisco CA-based performer, choreographer, and teacher, James Graham. He dances with Lisa Wymore & Sheldon Smith’s Disappearing Acts, the Joe Goode Performance Group, and is the founder of James Graham Dance Theatre. This conversation was his second engagement with the Center, as he participated in the 2019 NCCAkron Dancing Lab: Dance as Cultural Diplomat, a multi-day symposium exploring the exchange between Israeli and American modern dance.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How or when did you know you wanted to be a choreographer?
JAMES GRAHAM: I don’t think it was a, a day or a moment where I said, ‘that’s it, this is, this is it for me, I’m going to be a choreographer in my life.’ I think it crept up slowly. So I, and back up in my history a little bit, I was more into choirs and theater and other may, maybe physical practices that weren’t dance. And then that got me collaborating with people. They would say, ‘oh, you’re, you’re a mover, you’re in your body, can you choreograph part of this play? Can you do something here for my music video? Can you blah, blah, blah, you’re the only one we know who is in their body in this way.’ So I, I think it happened to me before I decided that I was going to be a choreographer, that that, that label or identity was put on. Welcome, I welcome it, but, but I don’t think until I got to grad school, which was 2007 to 2010. And that was one of the main things that I got from grad school was that incubator supporting me being able to experiment and just try. And, and in that experimentation and trying I, I realized that I loved it. That I had something to say or to offer the field. And that it, that it was an easy like, shifting of all of my values in the world. Meaning I want people to be in their bodies, I want people to have live experiences versus virtual ones on the screen. I want people to be more local in community, I want them to be more subversive and radical, and all those things choreography and live performance gives that to us, and to me. So, so it made sense.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: What I love about that though, is also the idea that you, you didn’t have to like make a decision and then work your way towards it, but you could collect that information along the way and, and, kind of arrive and be like, ‘I’m a choreographer.’ Right? And have that affirmation, which is kind of beautiful. Related to that in terms of like how and where, where did, where does one start. How do you start a piece? Like, where you begin or what inspires you, if that’s even a path that it takes?
JAMES GRAHAM: Yeah, I don’t think I have an inception moment. The very, very commencement of this piece. It must exist somewhere, but it creeps up on me. I, I, I don’t feel that I sit down with the pen and paper or go to a studio and, with the intention of starting a piece. Most of my inspiration and the the catalysts or the motivators to make a work short or evening length or something comes from an observation. I always, I’m just a curious little cat. That I’m fascinated by people walking down the street, I’m fascinated by people having conversation, I’m fascinated by, like, the way people pick things up. It’s, like, the most banal, mundane activities, human behaviors fascinate me. And mostly interpersonal, the way we navigate each other, and society, and sociology. And those things become fodder for what I create. So, I don’t think it’s, it’s, it’s rarely slash never let’s recreate verbatim a, a, or like an essence of something that I saw. That’s often like, ‘isn’t that weird that humans do this? Isn’t it interesting that we do this?’ And I don’t think we’re aware that we do this. And I talked to my dancers and, and we just discuss, or I show them or tell them what’s, what I’ve experienced. And then we play with it, we talk about it, we improvise with it. I typically just keep lists of things in my phone, or in my notes, my notebook, like, things I see on the street, but also articles, also movies, films. Also Ted talks, all, you know, anything that, that wakes me up or makes me lean in, or dilates my pupils. I’m like, ‘huh, that’s interesting.’ And I just keep these records, kind of, this, this archive of interesting things that I, when I’m in the rehearsal process, I comb through all the time. And some things just never make it, even into the rehearsal studio, like, process. And, and some things do and then they continue to evolve and morph into what they become.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So one of the questions that often comes up with our, our choreography students is how do you name a dance? Right? So, you either are writing a grant or they want program copy and you have to put a name on this sucker. How, what do you source for that? How do you kind of, cause that does feel it’s something that can’t creep up on you, but it needs to be definitive and maybe sometimes you’re not ready to do that.
JAMES GRAHAM: Yes. That, that is so true and is such a, there’s such a learning curve about that. Cause we feel like we’re being dishonest, we feel like we’re kind of lying to get money sometimes, or I have. When I’m like, ‘I have no idea.’ It feels like, ‘why would I offer you anything? Like a title or description of a piece that’s going to happen in two years?’ That’s so bizarre to me but is the nature, it’s where we find ourselves, you know if you if you’re a young choreographer or just anyone. It’s the system, if you want to play that game if you want to apply for grants, that’s the system of it. So I’ve sort of like detached them. Just have a total split where there is the skill of writing about your dance, writing about your process beforehand and then the skill of just creating in your craft and knowing that people are forgiving and that you, that you can just navigate it. So I think, I think there’s a sense of, like, transparency and, and candor inside of that. Like, it’s really ok to not know, and it’s ok to, like, write about what, where you are right now. Or what may be the thing that you’re inspired by right now, and totally knowing it’s not going to be in the piece and that’s ok.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Right.
JAMES GRAHAM: Just being super vague, just being super general. This piece is about personal relationships, boom. So.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes, Yeah, yeah.
JAMES GRAHAM: But it is frustrating. It’s a hard, that’s a hard thing I think.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Well that’s, it’s hard in part to know, right? Like, is, depending on school of thought, dance making, choreography can be a means of making a thing, or it can be a means of asking and inquiring and discovery. But particularly with the former, the idea of making a thing also feels like what we name it is going to be definitive. Is the possible program note or a hint for the audience about what you’re promising in the name of your work, or your evening. And, and there’s all the challenges of what makes good marketing, what’s gonna be, you know, well received in a proposal or for a grant. But then, how much is in the name of the dance work and extension of your artistic point of view and your vision for that work.
JAMES GRAHAM: Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: You know, it’s not just, like, pick a name. But it’s, it's like naming a child. This is going to create what that person will be in the world.
JAMES GRAHAM: Yes, yes. And the expectations, and you’re putting your name on it, and it’s true. I think of it as a different skill actually. It’s the skill of writing about your word. The skill of speaking about your work. And it’s, like you said, marketing, it’s a bit of like selling yourself. And not in a negative capitalistic way always, but a way of, of communicating. A way of getting someone into, you know, your mission statement or getting someone, into your, your, your view of the world, and your place that you operate from as an artist. So it’s, it is essential. You know, like, if you want to share your work and get people to come it is essential to be able to explain to them part of what you’re up to, yes.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Back in the studio, I’m curious how would you characterize your choreographic relationship to sound? Right? So, if you’re not one of those choreographers that says, ‘I find a great piece of music and I make a thing,’ you know, you know, how does sound play a role in your process?
JAMES GRAHAM: Yeah I, I think it’s movement and, and text before music and sound for sure. And it, and it’s actually similar to what we were talking about in terms of the inception of the work, or like how do you start, where I keep notes and I, I keep ideas, I just collect them over the years. Same with music. It’s, it’s not, there’s no formula to it, it’s just if something strikes me as interesting, or beautiful, or, or useable. ‘Oh, this could be great in a work.’ for whatever reason. I know it would support things that I make or moods that I want to create, but it’s always added after, later. I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever come in with music. And even as a supportive, you know, not even to say like, ‘a five, six, seven, eight.’ But even just to say, like, let’s improvise with this music, and then it’s gonna be in the piece, I rarely do that either. But it’s super commercial that it’s of course almost an equal element to the costumes and the lights and the sets and the, and the choreography, it feels, it needs to be given its attention, you know.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I, I remember one of the first times that I consciously recall seeing you perform was actually with a microphone and giving voice in one of Hope Mohr’s pieces. So I know voice and sound as a textural element is something that really resonates with you. You’ve brought in, like, the costumes and the lights, so what do you look for in dancers or any collaborators?
JAMES GRAHAM: I think just a willingness to meld our views. I, I want someone, I mean those are all quite different, right? A dancer versus a lighting designer, but I want someone who has their own voice, who has their own artistic practice, aesthetic, opinions, and skill, and craft. And at the same time acknowledges that it’s a collaboration. Which I hope I’m doing, right? That I, I want to say, ‘hey this is what I’m picturing for the lights, what do you think?’ I don’t want to say, ‘just go do it, and when you’re done tell me,’ you know. And, and the same with the dancer, I feel, I’m not really interested in a dancer who just wants to be told what to do, and I’m not interested in a dancer who doesn’t want to be told what to do. And, and wants to do their own thing. Which I rarely find either, either ends of that spectrum. But people who are interested in, specifically dancers, who are interested in the process, I think we spend 95% of our time in our rehearsal timeline, rather than a performance situation, so if you’re not engaged and interested and curious and enjoying rehearsing and being in the room together, I, for me it’s like, what’s the point? Because we’re not preparing to live our lives, we’re actually living our lives here together. Let’s acknowledge that. So usually what ends up happening is that I hire people that I already know. I, I don’t do auditions, I don’t do, you know, searches, or friend of a friend of a friend. It typically like, ‘oh, I’ve seen Christy perform, I’ve hung out with Christy, I know Christy’s friends. I just know we’ll probably work well together, Christy are you available?’ And that, that make sense to me, yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: What does the term ‘21st-Century Dance Practices’ mean or connote for you?
JAMES GRAHAM: Huh. Simple.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: You accepted the invitation, so it must have resonated in some way.
JAMES GRAHAM: It was in the subject line of the email chains, like, you clearly knew what you were getting into. You had all the time in the world to sit in your apartment and think about this during the pandemic. First thing I think about is, is, like, what are we saying? It’s just not a new conversation, dance practices, who’s dance practices, where, what country, what strata of society? Who are we talking about? What are these things? So, and because we’re in this context talking to each other, I feel there’s the assumption that we know, I’m more into contemporary practice with a specific lineage and, and also open to what that looks like and means as well. Anyone can be a part of the contemporary dance world if they if they say they are I guess. Yeah, in, in general, like, in the field, professional dance companies, in academia, in departments, and dance majors, and training, in those places, and, and locally in San Francisco, what I’ve been noticing in various ways, it feels like, that there are lots of different shifts and there is room for everyone. But there’s a shift towards more, more welcoming, more acceptance, more, more personal, like, where’s the ‘James’ of your dance? Where’s the, where's the ‘Christy-ness’ of your technique? Which feels very, like, Judson Church or something, so it’s coming back. But, you know, a lot of where I teach at UC Berkeley, I feel that it’s, it’s moved away from training people in a specific codified technique and moving towards something that is everyone can be welcome in this department and everyone can have an experience of being in their body in a dance class or as a dance major if you choose to do that. And I, I feel like that is more prevalent in terms of practices and in terms of, like, how, how 21st-century contemporary dance can kind of filter, infiltrate into the greater community of people who are not just, like, professional dancers. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: The more in inclusive spirit that you’re tapping I think one of the things that particularly resonates in, in why we are, are forging this with the University of Akron is sort of revealing that spectrum between the binary modern or ballet and, and putting a name on it, like 21st-century dance practices, is also sort of, it, it’s like your winter clothes and your summer clothes. We’re putting 20th-century dance practices in a time-limited box as well. And those do happen to be, although not exclusively, but they often are single choreographer companies, techniques, models, a, a, a regimented approach that you will be excellent at this particular process. So when I think about 21st century, I think it is about that inclusion but also a, a porousness, right, a flexibility and an adaptability of a way of moving that isn’t just training for working with one kind of artist for the length of your career. Kind of with that in mind, one of, one of the other questions then is so, how you, plugging into a field that is a hundred years old, how do you navigate between new and old movement vocabulary? Right? Something that you either, you know you’ve seen before, you recognize on your own body, versus looking for the new and, and something that maybe can’t be identified or, I guess, when do you lean into the known and when do you continue to push for the unknown and, and the new?
JAMES GRAHAM: Wow, interesting. Yeah, it’s, it’s making me think about a conversation I just had with a student of mine this week. And he was saying, he may be graduating, I don’t know, and he was saying, you know, ‘I’m, I’m really interested in doing commercial dance, I’m really interested in the industry, like, Los Angeles.’ And he said, ‘but I know that I’m missing technique, I’m missing the ballet and contemporary.’ And, and he, you know, and he was like, ‘what’s your advice? What should I do?’ And so first of all, ‘you, you’re a beautiful dancer, you’re amazing actually.’ And he has more of, like, a hip hop aesthetic, a clarity, and a sharpness to his movement, or that’s one of his strengths, but we’ve been doing a lot of gaga and doing a lot of improvisation. He’s been with me this whole year since, since August. So it made me start to think about the way, sort of the some of the old and new. And I said to him, ‘like, actually what you’re doing in my class, the Gaga and the improvisation and the more animalistic, or the more full-bodied, more sensitive dancer-human, has gone towards commercial, has gone towards mainstream popular culture music video.’ And I, I showed him Sharon Eyal who has, and she, her company of dancers was integrated into a live runway, a fashion runway show with Dior. I think it’s Dior, Christian Dior? I don’t know, I don’t know fashion. But it’s a beautiful video, and it’s really interesting and it’s, and it’s, you know, if you think of that as the industry or as commercial, that it’s gone mainstream in this way, and, and their movement is not, I wouldn’t say, focusing on the aesthetic of ballet or contemporary dance as much as it is in this other, you know, more Gaga-esque, more Israeli contemporary, which, you know always stems back to being close together. But it’s like two different ways getting towards the same thing. Which feels the new, you know, like, and also the way I see many companies in America and in Europe maybe absorbing the aesthetic of Gaga or of Batsheva. Sort of replicating either through practice or having repertory set on them I don’t know, but seeing it in the field slowly but surely start to ripple out so that you see certain movements, or you see certain affectations coming up, popping up in different companies. And that feels like, you know, the new. One of the things that I can, almost like I can measure it growing. And that feels like the new to me. Also and, and something else when we were talking, kind of the question before I was thinking about this. As I’ve gotten older and just been in the field I’ve been thinking about, like, what do I want from this field? What do I want as a dancer? What do I want as a choreographer? What interests me still? What do I want to share? How can I be of service? And the, I keep, it keeps growing more and more that I want to be of service in the way that I’m giving a movement experience to more and more people. So this idea that, like you were saying in, in academia, bouncing between ballet and contemporary, and being like, well there’s room for a lot of things. And I feel like most of our dance majors are also other majors. So the, the it’s also the supplementary thing, this, this multiplicity. They’re doing many things. They’re not so singularly focused, I think, as, as maybe departments were 20 years ago, 30 years ago. So I’m really trying and interested in, in sharing movement experiences with people who are not professional dancers, who are not dance majors, or whatever because it feels, it feels like a service. It feels like something that can literally improve people’s lives and the quality of their life, the pleasure of their life, the joy in their bodies. I think it is, like, what we were talking about before this idea of being revolutionary or subversive. Like, our culture gives a lot of messaging that’s anti-body. That is body shaming, or is sex is bad, pleasure is bad, or any, any slew of things like to sell you something, to convince you that there’s something wrong with you. So I feel dance, like, choreographed dance, but any movement practice, any dance movement thing I can offer, performance, or a class, or just a conversation I’m having with someone or just my representation of how I’m in my body just hopefully grounded and loving can, can change our society. Can change our culture and that’s like the, more of the core, the nexus of like why I do what I do. And also more of the, like, bigger spectrum, the bigger scene, the bigger views of how I can be of service through dance.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah, I know these rectangles are big enough for our whole... But one of the other things that, that, that come to mind. And maybe you’ve read Liz Lerman’s ‘Hiking the Horizontal,’ and, and for those that haven’t this idea that doing a performance, making a thing that gets performed at Lincoln Center is not necessarily more, or better, or more virtuosic than doing a performance with people and senior citizen, nursing home, or community. But it’s on this horizontal, and so I do think that we trained our audiences as well to think about virtuosity being the 32 fouettes center stage, or even in commercial dance, that it’s about the tricks and, and how you can do something someone’s never seen before and it will make everyone gasp. And I’m hearing in what you described is that the the idea of virtuosity is finding that deeply personal connection with the human being. Either to be, or for someone to see that in your performance, or create or for you to elicit that from a student or a fellow dancer, which is really quite lovely. I want to ask you just two more questions and, and one of them is when it’s not going well, right, how do you get out of a creative rut?
JAMES GRAHAM: ...specifically, when I’m in a rut, like, in a process when I’m in studio or whatever…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: You’ve been doing it for six or seven months, and you’ve got a show, yeah, coming up and it’s past the point of no return.
JAMES GRAHAM: Exactly.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And yet you are still trying to find your way.
JAMES GRAHAM: Right. I, I think the, the first thing is like, take, not take a breath, the first thing is just like accept the feeling. You know, the, this very Buddhist, meditative thing of like, well, yeah, you can feel whatever. You can feel anxious, or fearful, or jumpy, or something and, and just accept that you feel that. Great. It’s not gonna help the process at all to be frustrated or to, you know, get angry with your dancers or anything like that. So what I, what I typically do is, like, rely on other people. So I’ll talk to my dancers and say, like, ‘alright, what do we have? Like, literally what is the material that we have, let’s name it all. We’ve got the duet with so and so, we’ve got that monologue over here, we’ve got the group section where we lift each other, and da, da, da.’ Ok, and then I’ll say, ‘for me, the one thing, I mean my favorite thing in this whole piece, what this piece feels like it’s about, or this section speaks to what I’m, what I’m curious about is this. That moment where you reach for each other’s faces and you slowly touch your cheek.’ I’m like, ‘everything else is extra, but this moment is the most essential, you know, so let’s focus on that and build out from there. Like, what else speaks from there? What do we have and what do we not have?’ And then they also tell me, like, what’s your experience in this piece, tell me what you feel as you’re doing, what feels unnecessary, what feels totally essential and necessary?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Last question. In navigating a creative life, what is the best piece of advice that you’ve received or would like to share with our aspiring creative folks?
JAMES GRAHAM: Hmm, how to say, that self-care and, and developing an inner world, an inner landscape is, is, is more important than an outer world. Meaning, like, the things you do or how you look or who you’re around, or, I don’t know, your house or things like that. These things are not as important as developing some inner landscape, some inner world. And there’s lots of ways to do that. And I think I do it by, by mindfulness, by meditating, I do it by reading, I do it by staring at the ocean for an hour, I do it by being in nature, dancing, exercising, moving, swimming. Talking to people that I adore, feel connected with. But, as a, as a dancer and as a human it feels like if you don’t do that if that’s not there, the, the, the, the job, the company, the grant isn’t going to fulfill us, isn’t going to make us have a joyful, vibrant, meaningful life or a connected life. And so often, and I try to, I check that a lot, like, I think there’s a lot of ego in, in the world. There’s a lot of ego in being a choreographer. It’s really hard to not have it. It’s really hard to, to keep it in check I think. Like, putting your name on something and this is my creation, and, you know, even if you don’t have it, you still, you have to almost do it. This is my name on the thing, this is the emblem, this is the work, I’m the one who gets up and speaks whenever there’s a function. So to, to check it and to say, I’m a vessel of something, or I’m equal amongst everyone who’s here to create something together, yeah, the, the, I don’t know if that’s advice, but it feels like something I’ve grown to understand. That, that being a choreographer is for me a byproduct or secondary to, to listening to what’s happening inside. To dealing with old issues from childhood, to realizing that I’m the one who decides what my life is like. How I respond to everything that happens around me. True freedom, true, you know, detachment in a beautiful way. That that practice feels like the, the under, the foundation, the undercarriage of anything I do on top of that. As a dancer, as a teacher, as a choreographer. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: That’s beautiful. That is that idea that anchoring practice is, is something that will keep you grounded to weather both the ups and downs, right? As opposed to putting all of your hope and, and dreams and happiness on things that are outside of your control. I love that.
JAMES GRAHAM: Yes, totally.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. Everyone, friends at home, join me in thanking James Graham. Hooray!
JAMES GRAHAM: Thank you for having me.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside the Dancer’s Studio lunchtime talk series is supported by NCCAkron, The University of Akron, The University of Akron Foundation, and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards, Ellis Rovin is our composer and editor, transcription by Madeline Greenberg, theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus, and Julian Curet and Kat Wentz are our artist coordinators. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org or follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thank you for listening and stay curious.