In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Montréal, Québec and New York City-based Hélène Simoneau and Chicago IL-based dancer and collaborator, Connie Shiau. In addition to working with Simoneau, Shiau was recognized in Dance Magazine’s “25 To Watch” in 2018. Hélène Simoneau explores themes of intimacy, agency, identity, sexuality, and power in her work and has been commissioned by Oregon Ballet Theatre, The Juilliard School, and BalletX, among others. She was recently a Choreography Fellow at New York City Center and received a 2021 Guggenheim Fellowship.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Montréal, Québec and New York City-based Hélène Simoneau and Chicago IL-based dancer and collaborator, Connie Shiau. In addition to working with Simoneau, Shiau was recognized in Dance Magazine’s “25 To Watch” in 2018. Hélène Simoneau explores themes of intimacy, agency, identity, sexuality, and power in her work and has been commissioned by Oregon Ballet Theatre, The Juilliard School, and BalletX, among others. She was recently a Choreography Fellow at New York City Center and received a 2021 Guggenheim Fellowship.
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography in Akron, Ohio, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists in 2023-2024. Today we join Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive/Artistic Director, in conversation with Montréal, Québec and New York City-based Hélène Simoneau and Chicago IL-based dancer and collaborator, Connie Shiau. Simoneau explores themes of intimacy, agency, identity, sexuality, and power in her work and has been commissioned by Oregon Ballet Theatre, The Juilliard School, and BalletX, among others. She was recently a Choreography Fellow at New York City Center and received a 2021 Guggenheim Fellowship.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: We typically start out this series uh with the same first question, and that is ‘How did you know you wanted to be a choreographer?’ And since we are meeting Connie for the first time, I wonder if you would like to answer that question first.
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: I feel like there is sort of a need to, a need to create for myself. There is like a need in my body …for me to make sense of myself or my relationship to the world around me and I think the clearest way to communicate that is through movements and composing movements, composing bodies. And I, I feel like to me, to me, I love uh seeing people in space. I feel like just having people in space. The presence is already a kind of storytelling.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And Hélène, when we first spoke, you talked about coming to dance and particularly composition quite late after you got to the North Carolina School of the Arts. Um I'm curious, since you welcomed Connie into our conversation today, how would you describe your creative relationship?
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: Our relationship has really evolved over different projects that we've done together and different environments that we've been in. I met Connie at Springboard Dance Montreal quite a while ago, and she was one of the dancers in the in the piece that I made and really enjoyed that type of collaboration. And then over the years when I was able and when our schedules aligned, we've been able to work together, again. But I think more recently was when I created Delicate Power, which was a piece that was commissioned by The American Dance Festival and was premiered there in 2022. And so we were creating that work in a pandemic, starting out on Zoom and some of our very first rehearsals were just Connie and I on Zoom (laugh) Me, me in Montreal, Connie in New York And so there's like a, there's an intimacy that, that gets created is that I really value. And then also Connie's been, whenever able, I've been able to bring Connie with me when I'm staging works in other places, and that. So it's sort of a different relationship, but it's definitely grounded by the making that we do together in the studio. Um that understanding of like how I make and, and what it is that's specific to my work, I think Connie intuitively understands and also ignites and inspires within the process of whether we're creating in a context where she is the performer within the work or if we're if we're restaging something, and we're talking to other people about qualities of the movement, I feel like Connie and I are very much, there's like an understanding that's built.
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: One of the things that I've really enjoyed is that when I, which was a bit of a surprise, because I hadn't really thought of it this way. But when, when Connie and I go places together to stage works, we also have a little bit of time outside rehearsal. So, we eat together and we talk more. And there's something about that, that I find really fulfilling. And it just kind of further establishes the, the relationship.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Never underestimate unstructured time with food and beverage, right? And the work is never done just because you're outside of the studio. It's constantly marinating and processing. Connie, I'm curious, both your work with Hélène, you're an Artistic Associate with Gibney Dance Company in New York, you have worked with many other companies. But you also make your own work. Can you describe what that's like as you shift from so many different operating environments?
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: I feel like I exist in two different roles, at the same times. But sometimes I need to set boundaries for myself where what roles I'm in. Because I really, I enjoy creating a lot as a, as a collaborator, as a dancer, and as a choreographer. Um so when I learn the material, um or I learn a phrase, and when there's a task to ask, to require me to make a variation on the phrase, like my mind goes, like, I love doing that. I feel like that's my choreographer within the dancer turning on. Um, but in that role, I know that I don't cross the boundaries of trying to choreograph the piece, cause that's not my job. It's not my, it wouldn't be respectful doing that. Um, and so there's always this, I think, is symbiotic. But also knowing within the symbiotic um energy, there's also boundaries within that, so kind of knowing my place. And as a choreographer, I never let go of my dancer body. Like I like I really enjoy physicalizing the movement, creating material in my own body, even though I really love a collaborative process. I also love getting in there and, and trying it with the dancers, especially when there's partnering that partnering concepts and I, I'd like to try it myself see if it's possible. Um o r like if it's too much to ask. And, and also trust that being a choreographer that there's a lot of freedom. There's a lot of, yeah, freedom and expression that my collaborators and dancers can offer.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: There's something that I, I've found even as a former dancer, turned administrator, and arts leader, we, we learn by doing so it's particularly as a leader, I love that, that you're like, oh, I want to get into that choreography and see, like, how hard is this idea that it isn't just sitting at the front of the room and dictating, but you have to feel it in order to empathize or coach or, or continue to understand the momentum of an idea. I’m curious, Hélène, with the collaborators and dancers that you choose to work with, who are amazing in those roles and fantastic artists and choreographers in their own right, how are you navigating ideas of authorship? What kind of boundaries or parameters do you put around the process in the studio, with that sort of collective authorship in mind?
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: I think it's uh super important to have the boundaries. And, with yourself first, and then just sort of step into that with clarity. I think sometimes things get a little bit confusing, are messy, and we can try to, I think, like, one of the things that I find really helpful in working with Connie is that even though I know that she has, she has her own desires and her own artistic opinions. And if I, if I need to lean on that I can, like I can ask her opinion about something, she'll have one. But I try not to rely on that so directly because I really need to be the one steering the ship, and that's my responsibility. Um but if there's certain pieces of a task I can give, I trust her completely to make choices that are in line with what I'm trying to do. Or, or if there's something that we start working on, and it's not quite working in the direction I wanted to, I know that I can just also say that to Connie, and that she's not going to take that personally um that we're just oh, let's go in a different direction. And it's, it's we're unattached to um. There's not a sense of like needing approval, it's more about let's just explore some ideas. But I think the, the, I think as I, as I move through every project, I'm learning, I'm learning about like, what are, what are the things that these dancers need from me? What kind of leadership do I need to give them? What kind of specificity do they need in order to move forward and do their job? What are the boundaries in terms of like, how much do I want them to contribute? And how much do I want to really stick to my vision? And also, like, I think one of the things that Connie has really facilitated in Delicate Power is that I would give her something, we would work on it and it would unlock like in her body. Her, her translation of my of the idea in her body then inspires and unlocks a whole different, like chapter of creativity for me in my mind. So, there's something about that where it's like to really honor like this, Connie was very instrumental and inspiring the entire work. And this is a work of seven dancers, but at the core of it was my working with Connie as a soloist and then really building that initial, like, what is the aesthetic of this work? I think that was really developed in Connie’s body and in Connie’s decisions of how she's going to respond to the, to the movement idea or even just to a task. And so, it's I think it's always in terms of ownership, I think it's always a tricky thing that I, I try to learn about with each project. Um, and with each relationship I think sometimes it can be super clear and I think that's why I really love working with Connie because there's, there's an ease to our relationship.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: There's something that in what Connie you shared earlier about your inner choreographer gets to play inside of a prompt, but through to a certain point, because you are honoring that it is not, in fact, your process, but the chore, the choreographer like Hélène. And then Hélène hearing you talk about what this approach is, and how you can have some ideas. But having someone like Connie, who's so facile that really continues to stoke your curiosity, that keeps you outside, you know, beyond the limited idea of what you walked in with, but that can unlock something to an even greater power. So, it's, it’s almost like there's the shared skill and practices of curiosity. I also hear this sort of evolving nature, and it very much might instigate and start with the bodies in the room, and that it is, you know, the starting place, but it will then change. I'm curious what you notice stays the same, from an original work to being staged on another cast of dancers, and what changes with the dancers, the bodies that continue to realize the work, even though they weren't the originators?
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: I think what stays is the details, the information of the original material, through the sharing. Um I think it is important to honor the aesthetic and honor the specificity, the details, um through my body. And also through my body and then articulating through language. It almost certainly will show up differently on other people's body. And I think that's when the coaching can happen and there, then there's brainstorming with the dancers of how because it shows up, because the details in my body, through my language, it shows up differently in your body, how do I then be creative of my articulation again, and to lead you to where it exists in the original work, and the intention of the original work? So I feel like there's always a lot of really fun challenges, especially how I facilitate this space. And I feel like that's the fun part of working with many different dancers um is how information can show up so differently in different bodies. And how like working with their thought processes, and how they receive informations and also how I receive information, um it's always quite malleable to me and then maybe come back the next day just looking transformed.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: It's almost like having a, an outfit or something that's been, you know, mass-produced in one way in fashion. And then getting it fit to your body to your measurements to, you know, your short waist, or long arms or whatever may be specific to how something's going to translate. But it doesn't just come off the rack.
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it. [laugh]
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE:[laugh] This is not formula, formulaic. And that's the human intervention, right? Yeah. Um I'm curious, given that you're both generators, that training may also come from some codified techniques that you're either building off of, and/or trying to move away from. How do you as makers navigate between new and old movement vocabulary, is sort of known, and then pushing yourself to find the unknown?
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: I try to, whether I'm choreographing or dancing or facilitating, I try not to describe a shape or a step as like a codified language. Because then I feel like it creates such a anticipation and expectation of what it looks like. Um it's a swing, it's a movement, it's, it's an action, you know, like, the gravity takes this over. So then the elbow leads. Um it's a drop. So it's not, it doesn't become a fourth position, you know. It drops and then the legs spread away from you. Or, you know, the, it's you, feel the wind.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Beautiful imagery and sensory nature, feel the wind. I’m going to think about that the next time I need to write an email. I'm like Woooh, that, it, it, it made all the senses come alive. I really felt that in a different way than executing the steps.
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: It’s interesting, because I do find that a lot of my interest in form and shapes is, is prominent in, in the work that we make and at the same time, I'm thinking now like, I would just love watching Connie teach the initial phrases, the material, like the first few days that we’re somewhere. And I do remember now like you're listening to you, I was just thinking like you, you really center, how you teach the material from a place of sensation and what it feels like. And it does become very alive and three dimensional, and then really alive in each person's body and how they respond to those tasks and those actions.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How would you describe your approach to virtuosity in dance? And I think that this is, this is something that, particularly working with as many students as, as you have, you know, their ideas and relationship to the steps may still be sort of, in these boxes or containers. This is your Graham technique. This is your Ballet technique. They're still on the sort of younger side, I think and not just age-wise, but mentally of striving for how high they can jump, how many fouetté turns they can do how flexible they are. And I'm curious as you have now been out into the world and carving your own creative voices, how would you describe virtuosity in your aesthetic?
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: I think my idea of virtuosity has shifted a lot throughout the years. Yeah, well, I was trained in a conservatory, and a lot of my training was Ballet and Cunningham. And what virtuosity means within those techniques is super clear what we're trying to achieve, is measurable um and I felt like I lived in that space for a really long time. And then as I've gotten older and more, have had more experience in the space in the studio, in making, I think I really value I value that virtuosity, but I value more I think that transitional spaces in between and so I sometimes really see the maturity and the experience and the beauty of a dancer’s way through the material in how they address the in-between steps and the transitions and, and how much value they placed there. And I can see like, with more experienced dancers, oftentimes, that's a really rich contribution that they can bring to the room that isn't quite as measurable and isn't quite as easy to point to. But I see that that virtuosity. And then I've also, you know, think too about like mental virtuosity and concentration um. There's, there's this one part in Delicate Power that I really love, that's very simple, but very hard. And um it’s this part where they, the dancers come in one at a time, and Connie, I think you are in this part, because they come in one at a time and they start jumping, just like in parallel first, just jumping and there's like an addition of each person and at the end, they have to do 31 jumps and they have to land exactly as the music changes. And just the concentration of counting 31 jumps while there's other things going on, I find so beautiful like that every time they would get it like that's the part most excited about in the whole piece. There's so much more traditionally technical things happening in this work, but there's something about that moment that just gives me such satisfaction and it's the, it's the mental concentration and like the joining on like everybody has the same goal and we're all in this together and it should be just we just need count to 31. And it's, I find it very exciting. and it has like the, the same excitement for me as if someone came across some did like 6 pirouettes.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: It’s the virtuosity in the simple and, and I think about cooking, you know where that sometimes the, the test will not be what's the most complicated dish you can make but can you impeccably execute on the simplest and, and still make it exciting in that way that you're, that you described like the last jump being all at the same moment right before the music changes. Connie, how would you describe virtuosity in your aesthetic?
JIE-HUNG CONNIE SHIAU: For me, what I find what virtuosity means to me is I believe the ability to play with how gravity, kinda like your relationship, relationship with the gravity and one's body. And I can expand on that um Like, the relationship of going with, going against, and the relationship of the weight of your bones or the muscles toning, kind of going against, like how you're engaging your muscles, that can be a play with gravity. And I mean, all these, like, I didn't in retrospect as a young dancer, I couldn't see this, but now, like seeing all these codified techniques, it's all about different play with gravity, like we play with suspension, you want to jump really high but in order for you to jump high, you got to send energy down the or behind you, for you to jete out. Or when you are descending, you need to have energy out from the top of your head, so you can have like a soft landing onto the floor. And it creates textures. And that's, that's, that's dancing, that's textures.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. Yes. And I feel like we're partly inviting people in and partly giving away all the secrets behind how you make dance look effortless, but that, that's the virtuosity right? That's the appreciation is like, it looks simple. And yes, we're superhuman and amazing. But we are also human, and have figured out how we're relating to gravity. Both of you have found like such fantastic careers, navigating through this, finding your own way, relating to the environments, I'd like to invite each of you to share piece of advice with your fellow colleagues, other makers in the field, as well as our dance students who may aspire to, to growing up, graduating and going out into the quote unquote, real world. What advice or feedback would you like to give them by way of navigating a creative life?
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: I feel like I never really know what I'm doing (laughs). So, I don’t know. I probably have some advice in here somewhere.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: But that’s so amazingly honest. That in itself, I think is huge.
HÉLÈNE SIMONEAU: [laugh] I think there is something I mean, this has actually inspired me to think about it a slightly different way too. It's, there's something about whether it's within like, a very specific, trying to craft a choreography, or if it's within the larger, big picture of your career, I think making decisions is always for me the way to go um and sometimes, even if you're not sure, I think I just don't, I've, I’ve never done well, just living in that space, the anxiety of not making a decision. Um and so there's something about like make a decision, and then you'll know if it was the right one, and if it wasn't, you just backtrack. This idea that every decision is permanent is just actually not true. Especially in a career that's like going to be decades long. So if you make a decision to join a project or join a company or move to a city, and you don't like it, you can change your mind. You can find your way out of that you can make a different choice. But I don't think there's anything lost in having made a choice. And there isn’t anything lost by going to a project or doing something that didn't work out, because whatever, three months or six months or a year that you spent there, you've learned something that's gonna feed. And I think that for me, like as I can think of it as a maker, like in the studio, if I make decisions, and if I'm collaborating with people who are also decision-makers, in their decisions and the decisions that I'm making, I can get a better picture of what it is that I want, what it is I'm interested in, and also eliminating what I'm not interested in and I wouldn't get that same clarity if I just stayed in the default, no decision. Um the ambiguity. Yes. Or waiting for someone else to decide, waiting for someone else to choose me, waiting for someone else to notice me, that’s just a disempowering space to be in.
OUTRODUCTION: Support for Inside The Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation, the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts, and Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. James Sleeman is our editor, transcription by Arushi Singh. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Sarah Durham, and Will Blake. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.