In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the 'studio' with voices representing a span of 3 different generations. Dianne McIntyre, based in Cleveland, Ohio; Donald Byrd and Nia-Amina Minor, based in Seattle, Washington; and Donna Uchizono, Tiffany Rea-Fisher, and Kristel Baldoz, based in New York City. Merry Petroski, Project Manager of the Creative Aging Institute at the Akron Art Museum, also joins the conversation.
Jennifer Edwards: Thanks for joining us Inside the Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography in Akron, Ohio. This podcast was recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists in 2024 and 2025. In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the 'studio' with voices representing a span of 3 different generations. Dianne McIntyre, based in Cleveland, Ohio; Donald Byrd and Nia-Amina Minor, based in Seattle, Washington; and Donna Uchizono, Tiffany Rea-Fisher, and Kristel Baldoz, based in New York City. Merry Petroski, Project Manager of the Creative Aging Institute at the Akron Art Museum, also joins the conversation.
Christy Bolingbroke: Dancing labs are built on the premise of rigorous play and positive failure. And this particular lab is about intergenerational exchange. It is something that is not just happening in the dance field, but in the workforce today. There's an estimated five generations of labor in today's workforce, in the US. In this podcast alone for Season 6, we will represent seven generations of dance makers. For the first time ever, we have the privilege of aging. We have people making dances longer than they ever were before. Particularly in the sixties, seventies and eighties, those trailblazers were making it up as they went along and they couldn't Google an answer. Today, they're still trailblazing as they're making dances in the 55 and better era. And so we're very excited to welcome artists who've been having these conversations. B ut before we do, I'm especially excited to welcome Merry Petroski from the Creative Aging Institute at the Akron Art Museum to help us set the tone a little bit and understand what is creative aging.
Merry Petroski: What the Creative Aging Institute at the a Akron Art Museum is, it's solely a space where we are going to support creativity in folks who are 55 and better. We are going to be adventurous.We are going to help people continue to express themselves and evolve. The people that I work with are living proof that there's no expiration date for your creativity. It, you know, April 16th, Oh, can't be creative anymore. I guess I better go home.
Christy Bolingbroke: Creativity doesn't have an age limit.
Merry Petroski: No, it. No. There's no, there's no limit to it. And I get to be that person that holds space for people as they experiment. Maybe they've never cast aluminum to, to create a sculpture. Maybe they never thought of themselves. Who might be the person to create a graffiti street art piece. And those are all workshops that we have been able to host for our participants in, in Summit County and beyond.
Christy Bolingbroke: What especially resonated with me was not just seeing the creativity knows no age, but also understanding how closely ageism and ableism can be quite intertwined. And that's where I felt that dance brings a sort of special hyper awareness of that, right. You know, we're, speaking from the body first and foremost. How did you find your way in getting to do this work?
Merry Petroski: I have, been working in senior housing and senior living for many years. I have an art background, a communication design background and art history background. So when I saw this opportunity at the Akron Art Museum, I thought, you know, this is, this is me. I'm going to be able to blend these two areas, and it's just been amazing.
Christy Bolingbroke: What have you learned so far? You've been running it for a couple of years now. I know we had a, a conversation about unlearning some habits. Particularly the, the stigma that's associated with aging.
Merry Petroski: I just made a decision at the beginning. There is no one at any age that wants to do something that's boring. You want to explore, you want to evolve, you wanna keep on going forward no matter where you are in your life, right? But I guess that has not been obvious (Bolingbroke: Hm). And so I just said we're going to adventure just as we would adventure with any other demographic that we wanna invite into the museum. Are you going to tell me that somebody who's 65 years old isn't angry about something that's going on in the world and doesn't maybe (Bolingbroke: Hmm) wanna make a mural and. Do it out on the street. No, I don't believe that. I think we are all trying to go forward, , every day no matter where we are in the, in the journey.
Christy Bolingbroke: Aging is the one thing we have in common, regardless of how many years young you are, we are all actively aging right now. The reframe that you're talking about is like, Oh, we have to change what the front is and change our assumptions (Petroski: Right) about why people would want to engage or to step up. Amazing. And I appreciate the reminder that it's a constant evolution or becoming, and we're gonna get to hear from more artists who have continued to evolve. I love when we get to bring so many artists together. In each partner there's a 55 and better And then we worked with each of them to identify who would they be interested to speak with. This was not by design, a mentor-mentee relationship. But one of reciprocity. Tiffany, would you like to grab the microphone and you can start?
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: My name is Tiffany Rea-Fisher. I am a choreographer based in Harlem, New York. I also spend half of my time in the Adirondack Park, which is the northern part of, of New York State as the director of the Adirondack Diversity Initiative. We were asked to kind of give some highlights/ I wanna be very clear that this moment is one of the highlights because I found out, just randomly I got an email that Diane McIntyre knew who I was (laughter). And I freaked out. I fully freaked out. I called my mom like, I was like, Oh my God. I was in the middle of a, of my own performance and had to excuse myself like I lost it, which was just so wonderful. I had been a fan of Diane's for some time, so to know that she knew me and more so than that was inviting me to this opportunity was really fantastic.I think earlier in, in my career I was on a mixed bill. We were touring, Europe, and I was on a mixed bill in Luxembourg and the Duke and Duchess of Luxembourg were there and they asked specifically of like who the choreographer of this one piece was. And I got to go back and I got a tutorial on how to bow and how to not make eye contact and things like that with them.But it really, that was the first time that I was like, oOh, oh, okay. That was, I had, I had heard tale of things like this happening. It was, it was really, truly incredible. Another, a couple of years ago I got to, , create a ballet for Dance Theater of Harlem. And I am a modern dance choreographer who really is always, I've, I've taken ballet, I did pointe, I did all of it, but I knew that wasn't my calling. But to be asked by Virginia Johnson to come into her space was such a gift. And it was a six week moment that because of Covid turned into a three year moment. And I got to premiere that piece. My season is coming up at the end of May. I'm starting to think about my choreography different, and I'm starting to think of the longevity of it and how to create forecast that maybe is gonna learn this 10, 15, 20 years from now. And that's just a new thought (Bolingbroke: Hmm). So I'm excited to go on that journey of what dance making for me looks like, as I think about the preservation of it (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And I'm a mom of a beautiful little girl, Kaya.
Christy Bolingbroke: Kristel, would you like to introduce yourself next?
Kristel Baldoz: Hi, my name is Kristel Baldoz. I am based in Queens, in New York. Similar to Tiffany. I am from Delano, California, so I'm, I'm from near Bakersfield. And I think that's an important fact because it does establish why I start, I make work. I'm a daughter of immigrants from Philippines, and my father worked in the fields picking grapes. And I think that action that I've learned from a very young age was what has haunted me and my artistic practice. Repetitive, monotonous like movement that I'm kind of obsessed with (laughs).
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Kristel Baldoz: And it is something that really informs the work that I do now artistically, even though it's not about the Philippines or Delano or the fields. And I am really interested, I'm a multidisciplinary artist, so I work across dance performance and ceramics, which is also something that I do in my performances. I, they, those practices inform my dances, or I usually make like arrangements. Well, I like to say is arrangements between bodies and objects. And one of the pieces that I think is a great example of that is, a piece I created during my Fresh Tracks Residency with New York Live Arts. It's called Yellow Fever. And I made a ceramic wig that I wear at one point, and I'm thinking about how objects have personhood and how people are seen as objects at the same time, and what does that look like through this hyper-identification of the blending of these identities.
Christy Bolingbroke: Nia-Amina, would you like to introduce yourself?
Nia-Amina Minor: Hi, I am Nia-Amina Minor, born and raised in Los Angeles, California, and I am based in Seattle, Washington now. A movement artist, a choreographer, curator. I do a little bit of art writing. I do a little bit of dramaturgy. I do a little bit of a lot of things (laughs).
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Nia-Amina Minor: A teacher, and I think that is a highlight right now for me is that I'm able to, um, kind of spread all the things that interest me into all of these different pockets. What I'm excited about moving forward is to find spaces or a space where I can show up as wholly myself (Bolingbroke: Hmm) and bring all these things in. But for now, a highlight is that I'm able to sustain myself by doing all of these things. I also have an extensive performance career. So highlight was dancing with Spectrum Dance Theater under direction of Donald Byrd, and then moving on and working independently, um, with amazing artists. I think largely the focus on collaboration (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) has been a seed that is definitely starting to, to blossom. Looking for spaces where I can come together or bring folks together to develop a sense of collective visioning around movement practice and around choreography and around multidisciplinary arts. So I was able to do that, maybe a year ago with a, a project called a Practice of Return. And that was a, a practice developing a practice through, um, collective visioning around returning to something in history in order to create new responses to it now. Sort of looking for the gaps in the archive (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And responding to those gaps, if not to bring more fullness to them, maybe add more flavor (Bolingbroke: Hmm), um you know, not to reenact or recreate, but only to see what we can see and move forward. So I like to think of time in this sort of non-linear, circular, multi dimensional way. And that's, that's certainly been a highlight. Another highlight obviously is being here and also learning, uh, about all these intersections in, in folks histories and careers. I continue to be surprised when I walk into a room of artists and know that we're all maybe 0.5 degrees of separation away from each other (Bolingbroke: Yes). All it takes is one conversation, one name, and then the cascading of information comes out. It's been such a pleasure.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mr. Byrd. I invite you to introduce yourself.
Donald Byrd: Hi, I'm Donald Byrd. I am a choreographer and a director, and I live in Seattle, Washington, and I'm the Artistic Director of Spectrum Dance Theater. As I was listening, , I, well, you know, the, the, the age thing. So I, I'm over seven decades old.
Christy Bolingbroke: Okay.
Donald Byrd: And, uh, so I have a lot of highlights. How do I choose? I mean, I could say I choose not to choose.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Donald Byrd: Uh, because it's all, it's all been really wonderful, in some ways. It's been also tragic (Bolingbroke: Hm), you know, and even those, that, those are highlights as well. I think maybe what I'm, I'm after is that, that the highlight is actually happens on a daily basis (Bolingbroke: Hm) that how present I am to my life on a daily basis. So at any moment, that's the highlight (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So it's kind of like what people would ask me in the past, what's your favorite dance? And I would, it would always, what's the favorite dance you've ever choreographed? It's always, whatever I'm doing at the moment (Bolingbroke: Hmm), that's my favorite (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). So it's kind of like that with the highlights. I would say that the highlight is where wherever I am happening, whatever is happening in my life that day that has my attention. That's the highlight.
Christy Bolingbroke: Can we also take a a public moment? We happen to be recording this the day after you were named a Guggenheim Fellow.
Donald Byrd: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: How about a round of applause.
(applause)
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm just, I'm just gonna say we didn't get to give you your flowers yet.
Donald Byrd: Thank you. Thank you.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes. Yes
Unidentified voice: Long time.
Donald Byrd: Long time coming.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes. Yes. Donna, would you like to introduce yourself, please?
Donna Uchizono: Sure. My name is Donna Uchizono, and I ask if you were to dedicate a dance to someone (Bolingbroke: Hmm), who would that person be? I will say probably my highlights in my life are that I'm still doing this in this continued body. I have a couple of pieces that people really love and we just did one of them and I was very humbled by the response. I mean, people, it was kind of amazing, people, some people came three times to see it. And…
Christy Bolingbroke: This was part of the, the Dance Space Project’s 50th anniversary.
Donna Uchizono: Yes, yes. And um. I was born in a US Army base. I am raised in California. Someone asked what generation I am? I'm third generation. I'm Japanese American. And I think that, when I think about highlights, I, you know, just being recognized for what I do is such a highlight.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Donna Uchizono: Then also being recognized like, you know, here I was a, a dancer with no turnout and Mikhail Baryshnikov asked me to make a piece on him. And then I was able to do something for Oliver Sack’s, I think it was his 60th birthday (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And I got to work with David Hammons. And so those. But I think the highlight is actually all of the dancers that I've worked with because I think they are the giantesses and giants of our world. And that's quite a highlight (Bolingbroke: Hmm). I am known for, uh, making set work, since 2016. I also have a thing what I call dedication practice. Um, and it's been developing and I developing a pedagogy around it. And it's in one of its form is I ask if you were to dedicate a dance to someone, who would that person be? We go and talk for maybe about 10 minutes. You maybe pick a song that you would like played, and then I create a dance on the spot for that person that you would like to dedicate a dance to. I don't know what music is gonna be played 'cause you tell the person. And so that's something that is another highlight ( Bolingbroke: Hmm) that I have been really excited about.
Christy Bolingbroke: So beautiful and like an accumulation of experiences and interactions.
Donna Uchizono: Right.
Christy Bolingbroke: You can see why I'm like an embarrassment of riches and we're not done yet.
(audience laughs)
Dianne McIntyre: My name is Diane McIntyre, originally from Cleveland, Ohio. Lived many years in New York City with my dance company and dance studio, Sounds in Motion. And I live here in Cleveland, and I've been here since 2003. In Cleveland, I had a lot of nurturing in my dance classes, Elaine Gibbs, Redmond. And I also was a scholarship student with The Cleveland Modern Dance Association from when I was maybe 11 years old. And I got to take classes and see performances by our major dance figures, modern dance figures, Cleveland Modern Dances. Okay. Major modern dance. So I had a lot of nurturing here in Cleveland. I was choreographing from age seven. Then I choreographed in high school and then in the university is when I found out if I had a gift for choreography, when I went to Ohio State. And they pushed me as a choreographer when I was at the school. So then I moved to New York just really to get some more experience in dancing and watching choreography, but then I stayed there. What happened was that I had another mentor named Louise Roberts. She was the head of Clark Center for the Performing Arts. So I said, Louise, I've always choreographed. I wanted, I did a short solo, which was just me the year before. I said, I wanna do a a group piece. I wanna do a piece, I wanna do a concert. 'cause I like choreographing for people. She said, well put up a notice and people will come to your audition. I said, but I'm brand new. They don't even know what I do. Why will they come? She said, be, this was in 1972, she said, the people will come to your audition because they're hungry to dance. I said, okay. So I put up a notice and people came. She said, just be clear about it. Do they get any money that, uh, when's it gonna be? So I did a piece of the Cubiculo, it was a small theater, mostly for theater and dance, 51st near Eighth Avenue. So after I did the concert, somebody came up to me and said, Wow, you can, and I shared it with somebody, ’cause I didn't have a whole evening. Somebody said, Wow, you could actually start a company. You could be a company and when you have a company, you could get money. You could write up grants to get money to pay people more. I'm like, so I'll tell you what my experience was when I was a teenager, whatever. I saw pictures of Paul Taylor, other dance companies, dance leaders. I said, I want to do that. My, the reason I went into it was because I was naive. Somehow I looked in a telephone book or something. Somebody told me about a person with the Association of American Modern Dance Companies. I was very bold then. I called up, I said, I wanna talk to you about how do I create a dance company. So I had a meeting with him, he said, you do A, B, C, D, and you get a lawyer and he will incorporate you, and here's the name of the lawyer and da da, da. It was just like, Yes, I just love to choreograph. I wanna have a company. And I, and the reason I picked Paul Taylor, because he did very unique work, but had a big following. So I didn't know up ahead it's gonna be like very hard. So in my innocence, I started my company. I've had many highlights, one was I worked in theater, been very fortunate to work in the professional theater world, so I created a piece called I Could Stop on a Dime and Get 10 Cents Change. This was a piece about my father, when you say dedicated. So I interviewed my father. He was a great storyteller, and then I created a dance drama where the people had to be able to speak and dance and sing. And we created this piece. All, everybody spoke my father's words and did movement that I felt was inside of him. It was done through in different parts of the country and every place that people applauded him (Bolingbroke: Hmm). He said, you made a piece about me. I didn't even, I didn't even do anything. Nothing, do anything. I said, yes, you are a hero because you are just like the people around this country that work very hard to make sure their family has everything they need. And also the community has everything. That's you, daddy. You are a hero. And he was, became a hero in Cleveland. He was on TV. They did interviews with him and all that, made my heart just fly. That's a little about me. Tiffany has established her dance company in Harlem. That's where I had my dance company so many years ago. She also works with themes that have to do with the culture. Some of them have to do with culture of African American individual and not all. It's not all of what she does. That's like me too. Okay. And also, she works in theater as well. So for me, hearing her meeting with her for the first time and hearing her energy and she's doing this and she's doing that, and we have to do this and we have to do that. And everything is my dancers and she's going here and she's going there. I'm like, Whoa. So it wasn't just that technically she was doing some things in the same location. Hearing her made me remember my energy at her age. I said, that's nothing would stop me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. It is a reminder of yourself.
Dianne McIntyre: Yes. Nothing would stop me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Yes. Thank you. Tiffany's turn. Tiffany's turn.
(laughter)
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: It's a perfect, perfect handoff. And I think for me it really was, it was this, this light bulb that came out and that I didn't have to do this myself. That there was, there was someone that had done this. There was a place that I could go to for answers I felt, I think throughout my life misunderstood a lot of times because I saw things that I was like, no, that does connect to this and this can be with that. And you can do, have your cake and eat it too, and grab off of someone else's plate. You can have all of these things. And you know, it's felt, I always felt like I was misunderstood until I had this conversation and the, the clarity and the confidence that Ms. Diane gave me of like, No, no, you got it (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And when I look at what she's been able to do, I'm like, you can do it (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). This is not theory. It's already been done in practice and it's been done beautifully with grace (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, so that was very helpful. And anytime I feel kind of doubtful or it's like, No girl, let's go (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You gotta, you, you can do it. You know? So that has been really helpful. And in our kind of like application essays. I had said that choreography can be really, it can work in a silo and it can be very lonely (Bolingbroke: Yes). It can be a very lonely place. So to know that someone has done this and so now I have Miss Diane in the studio with me on my shoulder.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: You know, even though I'm in New York and she's in Cleveland, I, I have her there being able to like (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know, push it, push it forward knowing that this is not brand new.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: And in the best way. You're not special. You're in a continuum, which is really wonderful.
Christy Bolingbroke: And vice versa, I think.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: Yeah, I hope so (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). Yeah. But that was our very first conversation, we literally just talked about the block. 'cause we also lived two blocks away from each other in Harlem. Like, so we were just talking about the new construction about (audience laughs) when this Whole Foods came in and like, it was such a wonderful, we walked literally had the same like, commute to our studio. I mean, it was really a very wild. It was wild (Bolingbroke: Hmm) how similar our lives were, our thought process were, and then the actual physical geography of where we were within not only New York, but Harlem in particular.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's finding a, a new old friend from the neighborhood.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: Amazing. . . Kristel and Donna, you've each entered this field at different times. Um, what have you noticed hearing from each other's perspectives? How is it the same? How is it different?
Donna Uchizono: Well, I think first of all, I wanna really think NCC Akron because I have this very horrible and sad distinction of being the first and only American born choreographer of Asian, an, ancestry to have received, cumulative national awards and recognition across the nation, rather than local areas. And also to have, toured a dance company both nationally and internationally. And that spent me spinning into a deep depression for about a year (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And as I (Bolingbroke: because this was a recent acknowledgement) as I, as I kind of came out of this, uh, depression of this, of what has been my experience of not having mentors like me, I also looked and saw that most of the funding and presentation of work, except for me, has been for Asian born choreographers rather than American (Bolingbroke: Mm). And so I've been talking to many people behind the scenes 'cause I want all Asian choreographers to be funded, but I want more of an balanced and equitable distribution of the funding and presentation. So I asked NCC Akron if the people that were looking at, if they could all be American born Asian choreographers. And so it has been just remarkable talking with Kristel. We feel, we don't feel so alone. Both of us. Our work isn't about our racial identity. I mean, and even though our identity will always be in there (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). It's no way of getting around that ) Bolingbroke: It’s the body). Um, and so I think for me, the common thing was like talking about like expectations of what, who we are as choreographers and artists and you know, just the tired, what I said in today, that tired of like, No, where are you really from? Seriously? Where are you really from? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm) I’m like California? No, where your parents from? California. So that idea of like the perpetual foreigner (Bolingbroke: Mm) and in your own country. And so that was something that we talked about a lot.
Kristel Baldoz: I feel like with talking to Donna, ot's funny 'cause we're, we started at a different time, but there's so many similarities in a way, like Donna mentioning that there are no mentors for her to lead her, her choreographic artistic career. And in some ways, like I kind of felt that until I talked to Donna (Laughs). (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm). So thank you so much for letting me have this opportunity to be with in conversation with Donna. And it was really refreshing because I didn't feel alone. I didn't feel, I mean, I think it's sad that I still feel this way after, you know, when, if Donna felt that way, and then I still feel that way (Bolingbroke: Mm). But knowing that we're still kind of in this together (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And we're still figuring things out together is really, really refreshing. And also as my practice has integrated visual work, I try really hard to keep it separated, but somehow they come together and it's, it's a drag because I have to carry a lot of things with me (Laughter). And I was like, I just want to go into a space and dance (Laughter). And I can't do that because this material is calling me. But the fact that Donna has a background, is a performance artist has this really rich knowledge around visual art is something also uncannily amazing to be paired with her in some ways. I was like, Oh, wow. Like it, every time we talk I'm just like, oh my goodness. Like, thank you, thank you so much for all. So, knowing about this or feeling this way, and I think to the point where Donna says this idea of the foreigner, I think this is the perpetual thing that we have in common that we're feeling similarly, is that, is the identity of the Asian American is a sort of sense of abjection (Bolingbroke: Mm). This casting off so it's as much as we try really hard, this has been part of our conversations to work hard to, to do the work that we do. There is this insistent, foreigner perspective or abjection that is tied to the Asian American identity.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm. You’re constantly evolving and becoming, but it sounds like there are still some factors that never change, and yet you might have different tools or different perspective to weather them. To hear from Donald and Nia-Amina. So you had a prior working relationship. Nia had performed with Spectrum. So I'm curious, what has come up for each of you in this process as far as like, where does the relationship go, uh, with a different invitation? Has it deepened? Has it expanded? How would you describe it?
Donald Byrd: How would I describe it? (Laughter) I, I, I, I, I think my relationship with Nia, and, I'm grateful for this. To have this opportunity to kind of engage with Nia this way, because, you know, when people, when you work with people, especially choreographers and dancers, that is a complex dynamic. When she took the last couple of days of my workshop in Seattle, I was very taken by her, her, how she approached the physicality. I could tell, or I thought, I could tell that there was a mind behind what she was doing. It wasn't just the body doing it or replicating it (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). It was something else going on that I was really drawn to. And it was a kind of independence, uh, that I really liked but also it unnerved me (Bolingbroke: Mmm) because even though I think of myself as, I mean, I've been evolving and, uh, but still the, the, the kind of classic choreographer dancer relationship. Just do what I want you to do. You know, shut up and dance (Laughter). Uh, and, and that (Bolingbroke: Yeah, you'll get your time too), yeah. And, and, and that's, that's impossible for her, you know? (Laughter continues). And so, and that's also what I appreciate about, about her is that that's impossible for her. If I got to choose the person who would succeed me at Spectrum, it would be Nia.
Christy Bolingbroke: Oh, now it's on the record.
Donald Byrd: Did I say that before?
Unidentified Person: No.
Christy Bolingbroke: You, I mean, we had a conversation (Byrd: Ooh. Yeah), but now (Byrd: I, I mean, it was something).
Unidentified Person: Great.
Donald Byrd: Yeah. But that's who, that's who I would choose. I mean, for a lot of reasons (Bolingbroke: Mm). You know, for a lot of reasons, so I think this process has been, in some ways, has been really terrific in terms of that. I feel sure about that decision. I don't know if that's something that Nia wants (Laughter).
Christy Bolingbroke: You don't have to decide today, but we are definitely gonna wanna hear (Laughter continues).
Donald Byrd: So I, so I, so the, the, the what we've, I, I think, I don't know what our conversations have been like, actually, you know, I think I'm just so used to talking to Nia. I've had, over the course of my career, I've had various kinds of muses (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And Nia, it's a kind of muse for me. And it's not just her physicality as a muse, but her mind. How she thinks of herself as a part of community is a, you know, is a, a, a lesson.
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm curious to hear, Nia, how would you reflect on, on what this opportunity has, added to or, contributed to your relationship with Donald?
Nia-Amina Minor: I came to work with the company at an older age. I was 26, 27, so I was already, I had had done work (Bolingbroke: I know) (Laughter).
Christy Bolingbroke: I mean, I mean relative to what was normalized (Minor: Yes). Talk about ageism (Laughter continues).
Nia-Amina Minor: Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think we know…
Christy Bolingbroke:…and you had Master's degrees.
Nia-Amina Minor: And yeah, I think we know, I mean, I should have said, you know it maybe in a different way, but I (Laughter continues) think we know if you've seen Mr. Byrd's work, then you know what I'm talking about.
Unidentified Persons: Yes, yes (Laughter).
Nia-Amina Minor: So, you know (Unidentified person: Yeah. Okay), I was already doing the calculations because in my mind I was thinking, well, my goal is to be, you know, dancing into my nineties. My goal is, you know, to be doing. Carmen de Lavallade, you know what I mean?
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Nia-Amina Minor: And so, uh, there's a way I need to pace myself and also make sure that I'm clear about, you know, what I can do, what I can't do, my boundaries. And, you know, so sometimes we would volley in the studio, he'd say something, I'd respond back and then go back and forth. And I think there was always a respect for my independence in my voice. And, uh, you know, I recognized that pretty immediately. But it was also a rigorous working relationship, which is something that I desired. Um, you know, so upon leaving, I, I expected it to continue (Bolingbroke: Mm). Even though I wasn't working with the company anymore. In fact, I wanted it to become something different (Bolingbroke: Mm). And to grow in healthy ways. 'cause I think the working relationship, whether you're working for somebody, working with someone, collaborations, you know, that a lot can come up (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). You know what I'm saying? (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And so my. One of my values is on maintaining relationships (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm). And I think particularly in the world we're living in, how are you maintaining relationships through it all, through a pandemic, through global crises, through internal, individual crises. And so that was what I, you know, what I expected. There, it, I wouldn't call it the mentor-mentee relationship, but it's an important relationship inside the community of dance that I have (Bolingbroke: Hmm), and I'd like to maintain those. I think also working with someone, you know, on a short term project or even in a company for a few years, when you leave that situation, sometimes relationships can fizzle. Not that you're not in connection, but the experience performing and working and creating is so deep that then when you leave that it, it, it, it sometimes doesn't maintain the same, you know, sort of intimacy (Bolingbroke: Mm). And so I, I expected it to continue. [00:35:00] I'm like, I'm still in Seattle, so what's up? You know? (Laughter_
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Nia-Amina Minor: Um, you know, and like Donald said, he has this way of pulling me in, whether for conversation or just, you know, Oh, come and watch this rehearsal. Um, and those have always been welcome invitations.
Christy Bolingbroke: And that is also a good reminder about how we cultivate those relationships, how we navigate what we look for. It’s not always a means to an end.
Nia-Amina Minor: Right.
Christy Bolingbroke: It's, I'm not just looking for a collaborator (Minor: Mm-mm), I'm just looking for a dancer. We, we know so much more now (Minor: Yeah). And, and I'm gonna take this opportunity to transition for a larger question and would love to hear from a couple of you. I’m curious if having this longevity of a career and still making work today, is it what you thought it was?
Donald Byrd: I'd really like to say something about that (Laughter). Uh, because when I was, when I was first in New York and I was dancing in New York, and then I went to California with Gus's company, Gus Solomons jr's company, at Cal Arts. And then when I went back to New York, New York was not what I left (Bolingbroke: Mm) a couple of years before.
Christy Bolingbroke: Even in that short time.
Donald Byrd: In that short amount of time. And how, like when I say to people. It was 1976, I went to with Gus, 76, 77. And so when I, there was no such thing as a career in dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Donald Byrd: I didn't, you know, you, if you wanted to dance, you dance and then you had some job or something that you did and that's, and so it was really about the dancing. If you're doing it, it's about your loved and commitment to that. So I come back to New York and then suddenly I hear people talking about careers in dance. What do you mean a career in dance? And then there's the Next Wave Festival, and then, you know, and it's just (Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm), you know, and it, it was just a, the world had changed.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. I would imagine if schools even do this anymore and they have a career day, like how many dancers or choreographers are being invited to career day.
Donald Byrd: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: As a way forward. I appreciate the pushback on the question because then to expand it, then we also have a generation, uh, of artists present in this lab who maybe have entered the field in the last two or three decades. You were able to Google some things, maybe you had heard from other, you know, mentors, faculty, teachers in schools about how hard it is and yet you did this anyways.
Donald Byrd: We all knew it was hard, and we still did it anyway.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Donald Byrd: And I think that's the important, that something about a characteristic of dancers, of artists is to do it anyway. Even though, you know, it might be fool, it is foolish (Bolingbroke: I Mm-hmm). It's foolhardy at any way.
Christy Bolingbroke: I love that. It's a good reminder because I think sometimes we get pulled or distracted in the comparison of what our, our dance civilian friends, family members, and colleagues are doing, or what their definition of success is. And so that's why I'm fascinated this like what are, what is the goal and, and, and how do you, uh, sort of reconcile that? I dunno. Does anyone else wanna talk about navigating a creative life? Tiffany has a thought.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: I described myself as a positive disruptor, and I think disruption, it feels the same. You don't know until you're on the other side of it, whether it's negative or positive or neutral. But I liked the idea, I was like, something this beautiful, it can't be all bad (Bolingbroke: Hmm). And what I was getting was like, you're, you're never gonna afford this. You're never gonna, you know, all of this negativity. I was like, I don't, I don't believe that. Because when we think of art, there's a lot of artists that do just fine for themselves. So I was like, I, it became then my goal to live the life that I envisioned for myself solely through my art (Bolingbroke: Mm). That became like, I'm gonna do that. And I think that speaks a little bit to kind of my, my way of being. I use kind of joy and rigor as an act of resistance (Bolingbroke: Mm). And in places where it's like, not built for me or meant for me, or made for me to succeed, I'm like, Oh no, I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna do it with joy and it's gonna be amazing. Like, and that's always kind of been my outlook on life. So I loved the challenge of something so difficult, so unlikely to happen, but I'm like, but it happened for them (Bolingbroke: Yeah) I saw, I saw it, saw happen, and saw…
Christy Bolingbroke: And some of the beauty is in that (Rea-Fisher: Yeah), that challenge and the daily joy that you referenced too, Donald.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: That's it. You have to be in love with the work (Bolingbroke: Hmm). If you're not in love with the work, it's a wrap. Walk away immediately (Bolingbroke: Hmm), you know? But if you're in love with the work, it can be a joyous, beautiful thing.
Christy Bolingbroke: And that is also a good reminder about how we cultivate those relationships how we navigate, what we look for that is not always a means to an end.
Tiffany Rea-Fisher: Right.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Jennifer Edwards: Inside the Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is produced by NCCAkron and supported in part by the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation, the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts, and Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio. Our podcast program is produced by Lisa Niedermeyer of Handmade Future Studio. Rahsaan Cruz is our audio engineer, with transcription by Arushi Singh, theme music by Floco Torres, and cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Sarah Durham, Christi Welter, Nakiasha Moore-Dunson, and Dante Fields. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.