In this episode, NCCAkron’s Executive Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the studio with Tucson, Arizona-based Angelina Ramirez and Albuquerque, New Mexico-based Carlos Menchaca, two artists exploring and expanding the conventions of Flamenco dance.
Jennifer Edwards: Thank you for joining us for the seventh season of Inside the Dancer’s Studio where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Celebrating a decade of rigorous play and positive failure, NCCAkron is an incubator and hub for dance research and development and serves as a connector, a catalyst, and a cultural matchmaker. Inside the Dancer’s Studio is recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists.
In this episode, NCCAkron’s Executive Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the studio with Tucson, Arizona-based Angelina Ramirez and Albuquerque, New Mexico-based Carlos Menchaca, two artists exploring and expanding the conventions of Flamenco dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hello. I'm so excited to get to speak today with Angelina Ramirez and Carlos Menchaca. Uh, also especially because this is the second time that we've gotten to have Angie on the podcast. And so because NCC Akron believes in a longitudinal investment, it's always a treat when we can revisit and circle back to check in with an artist again. You're right in the middle of your creative residency. Been such a treat to see your work in process showing yesterday. I'm gonna zoom way out. As a National Center for Choreography, we like to begin with what would be your definition of choreography in your own words?
Carlos Menchaca: Movement composed, perhaps.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm. Movement composed.
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah. A- a- arranged and a, a, a, a thoughtful arrangement of movement. As Flamenco artists, we do a lot of improvisational work.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm
Carlos Menchaca: But it's, we're still using our material, our quote-unquote choreography within an improvisational arena. So it's a little bit different. We're still using movement and steps and rhythms we've designed for ourselves, and we're applying them in, in just that, in this improvisational arena. But choreography is when you really arrange it, and you're really composing it. So I love the process of choreography for that because there's lots of kind of, when you have a piece of music or a concept, lots of like reverse engineering. And you have to go about it in a very thoughtful way. That's not to say that the tablao or improvisational Flamenco isn't thoughtful, but it's a different process.
Angelina Ramirez: Like Carlos said, you know, as a Flamenco dancer, there, there's all these improvisational elements to it. When I think and when I create set choreography, it's a kind of a body journey…
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:...a mental journey, you know, of a little bit of of maybe some, maybe discipline in me. I, I feel like the improvisation element of Flamenco, like feels very much at home and safe and in my body. Thinking about setting something and, and the challenge of the m- memorizing it and, like- You know, and putting it in my body and kind of ha- like making a home for it there is definitely kind of, out of the box for me.
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm reminded of one of our earlier conversations this week, Carlos, you know, when I, I've shared something that my dad taught me. He's nothing to do with Flamenco or dance, but he said, "You always have to have a plan from which to deviate."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And you said to me, "That's so Flamenco."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: What do you mean by that?
Carlos Menchaca: Well, just that, yeah, we go into our, our tablaos, and they're not rehearsed, right? We go and there's typically two to three dancers, depending, and we, we all kind of choose from the menu of, you know, different, of the different Flamenco song forms, right? We call them palos. You make your selection from, you know, that list of palos, and each one has a certain set of conventions. And, um best practices and things that your, your cuadro, which that's your-
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...Flamenco team, that's your Flamenco band, the cuadro, things that they kind of e- expect from you. And it's... I feel that I often have the most success when I have even if it's just the semblance of a plan.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Because within that plan, I'm able to...Yeah, does the plan go exactly as I practice it? Absolutely not. I'm gonna say usually 90% of the time goes nothing like the original plan I had. But I have sort of a foundation to deviate from, exactly as you said.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: A, a, a sort of foundation from where I can make informed choices, and I mean kind of like informed in the sense that I have a couple of steps kind of prepared, a couple of steps stashed away…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:…because I've organized it in my head. So I, th- then, like, taste can come into the picture, not just survival mode.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Which can be good…
Christy Bolingbroke: Right...
Carlos Menchaca: …sometimes just sheer survival and instinct-
Christy Bolingbroke: The adrenaline of performance ...
Carlos Menchaca: Exactly. And…
Christy Bolingbroke: oh, so and so, you know
Carlos Menchaca: Exactly...
Christy Bolingbroke:…maybe didn't show up or showed up late or is going through something else. Like…
Carlos Menchaca: All of that influences-
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Carlos Menchaca:...it, for sure. And sheer instinct and response is also very Flamenco, but when you have the opportunity i- in the moment, in a matter of seconds, to make a choice…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: then taste…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:…can be part of the, part of the equation as well.
Christy Bolingbroke: Well, and I love how you introduce this other idea, I don't know of, of other dance forms off the top of my head that would say, "Well, okay, our cuadro, our Flamenco team."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Because it immediately gives me an idea of, you know, if you're playing a sport that has six people on the court and each one knows what their priority is-
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...but they are also responding. "Oh, so and so has…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm, mm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...too many guards on them."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm. Mm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Or, "The ball is over here," or, "They're just far off."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And, and then you ha- are having to adapt…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...and respond. It also totally reminds me, and I've never done this before, but we've gotten to work on this f- uh, realizing this creative residency f- uh, uh, for almost 15 to 18 months of conversations, and we were successful in writing a grant to the New Music USA Foundation. And got the grant. And I was like, "What did we say? Now that we're getting to do the thing," and it sounds like we've been very consistent. So this is actually quoting you, Angie, from the grant. Thank you in advance for your contribution. To say, "Ramirez explains Flamenco music is characterized by its complex rhythms, often using 12-beat measures with counter and syncopated beats. So one artist may hold the, the downbeat while another plays offbeat. A Flamenco cuadro, comprised of a singer, guitarist, and dancer, operates much like a chamber music ensemble. The dancer must grasp musical structure while the musicians must know physical cues to lead the performance. This dynamic interaction creates the most authentic Flamenco experience and is often likened to Jazz." How is it similar or likened to Jazz, and how is it totally different?
Angelina Ramirez: part of our intention is to really make that clear to our audience and make that clear to our students and our communities how intricate and how, yet accessible Flamenco can be in a form of communication and artistry and fun. And so, I think the approach and in the way that we artists communicate with each other on the spot very much like Jazz.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: But... and maybe it's my bias [Bolingbroke laughs]. But, you know, Flamenco is a, I think a little bit, can be a little bit more intimate, which I think is really special.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, that's what we got to witness also yesterday a little bit in the showing, and, and this is a development of a, a title, working title, The Spider, The Bitten, The Venom. And you also remarked for the section that we got to see yesterday, it's there's quite a bit of, minute movement, stillness as it's opening up, and you made a comment about how it was the, um, Vincente, the vocalist, that if he wasn't there doing that, that's what's, that's what's holding you down. Can you talk a little bit more about that, particularly in this sort of like listen and relationship and how you're physicalizing it?
Angelina Ramirez: I'm very fortunate to have known a- all of us, for years and have worked with each other in many different capacities and, and have really steady and have built relationships. That root of that sound, that special, like, resonance of Flamenco cante…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: that the singer has the ability to kind of really just be completely influential-
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Angelina Ramirez: …of where they can take me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: And that's also part of the improvisation, right? Like, wherever that this, the singer is going to kind of lay it down, that first note or two, you're like, "Okay." And the reaction is just, like, so in it in the moment, so raw, and it's just kind of this other layer of relationship that you have with each other. Yesterday we worked on that opening piece for the first time when we were here with everybody, and, and VG, Vicente's first time really looking at all of this.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: I don't think he had any idea what he was getting into.
[Ramirez and Bolingbroke laugh]
Carlos Menchaca: A tiny, if anything.
Angelina Ramirez: We're gonna...
Christy Bolingbroke: As long as we've known you.
Carlos Menchaca: A tiny- Clean. Completely clean.
Angelina Ramirez: We just said, we were just like, yeah... "You, we love you. We know you. You're perfect for this."
Carlos Menchaca: Yes.
Angelina Ramirez: Pack your bags."
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Christy Bolingbroke: And that's really a, a s- true sign of trust that he did it.
Carlos Menchaca: And he came.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Carlos Menchaca: And he came, yeah.
Angelina Ramirez: And he came. And so, us kind of building that you could see his, like his own relationship in this process start to build.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: And he did. He started to kind of chime in and be like, "I would really like to try this here."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: Or, "And I'm gonna try this. Do you think that maybe…" You know, and, and having a singer just kinda look at you and, and be in process with you, and really watch you, and not just be there for accompaniment-
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah. Yeah ...
Angelina Ramirez:…You know, it's really quite, it's really qui- quite cool that we can keep the floor or the table open to that.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Angelina Ramirez: Like, we are just all working with each other.
Carlos Menchaca: We trust him in that way.
Angelina Ramirez: And we trust him. We trust him.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: And Misa was doing that to Misael, our guitarist, you know?
Christy Bolingbroke: You can feel when, when Vicente sings. And, and I think about it in dance training, sometimes maybe, a choreographer or a teacher would say to a dancer, "I want you to, like, yes, put your hand out, but I want the energy to extend past your fingertips." That is what it feels like with Vicente's voice.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Right? Like reaching you wherever you are in the room.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And it isn't always as big as possible. That's what I also witness when you say, like, he would find small ways to, to vocalize or contribute in some way that lets you know he's still there.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: We're, you know, still whether it's, it's holding space, contributing to space.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: You also do this, I think Flamenco artists in particular, dancers, in ways that not every other dance artist does. So I'll back up to share in revisiting our earlier episode together, Angie.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: You were one of the first percussive dance artists that we had gotten to host, and since then, you, this year you are actually the end of a season of percussive dance artists that we've been working with. When you dance, you are so fearless to make sound, if that makes sense.
[Menchaca laughs]
Christy Bolingbroke: It... That's, that's what it is like for a viewer and a listener. And, and I think about certain moments the first time you put on shoes and how you step into the space. Or before you put on the shoes and just kind of clicking the heels together almost like its own musical instrument walking around. Can you talk a little bit about, like, are you dancers or musicians, particularly when the choreography or whatever you're improvising is generating sound?
Carlos Menchaca: I'm definitely a dancer. A dancer who's v- very driven by music. Very difficult for me to dance with- without music, or even, I wouldn't go so far as to, like, consider the sounds that I do make music without, without something. I don't know. I mean, certainly we have to be very apt and have a lot of knowledge about music. We have to be very sensitive. You know, w-when, when I'm, when I'm a musician is when I'm in the Flamenco world, we call a palmero.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: And that's when you're, you know-
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...you're doing the clapping.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Right? And, uh, a very important part of Flamenco, a difficult part of flamenco also. In that world of things, in the cuadro, like we were talking about, in our Flamenco team, in our Flamenco band, when my job is palmero, That, uh, that's when I'm a musician. When I'm out there, yes, it's percussive and I have a huge responsibility to the music, and my steps have to be musical. And I don't know, this could just be my, my, my feelings about it right now, this instant, right? As we're doing this…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: ...this interview. But yeah, I'm a dancer.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Carlos Menchaca: When I'm out there, I'm a dancer. Yeah. I don't know.
Angelina Ramirez: I think that we're kind of, like, in the whole jazz theory, I make sure that when we are sharing the art form, that I tell my students, like, "You're here to, like, learn movement and learn how to dance Flamenco, but you're also learning how to be a musician as well." I try to iterate that because I want to express the importance of... or not the importance, but, like, the open the door to, like- a realization of really how much of a journey it is actually to study Flamenco.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Angelina Ramirez: You know? And so again, like, how maybe I use a comparison of Jazz is, and how I use an example of being musical is, look, like, you can take your journey wherever you want to, as a Flamenco dancer or guitarist or whatever, you know? And it also goes both ways.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: 'Cause even the musicians have to learn movement…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: …in some capacity.
Carlos Menchaca: The codes of, of movement.
Angelina Ramirez: The codes of the movement.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: And so it's the only way that, that works. You know? And if you just wanna show up and give your beautiful hand movements, your beautiful flails, and wear the dress, amazing. You do you, boo.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm [laughs].
Angelina Ramirez: You know?
Carlos Menchaca: However. That's not how it works...
Angelina Ramirez:...the, it's just like- Yeah...it, there's like…
Christy Bolingbroke: It's deeper than that.
Angelina Ramirez:...it's so deeper than that, and I always open that door of invitation. Because honestly, and then honestly, it's just like, well, you're only getting half the fun.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: You know?
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm very aware with Flamenco dancers how fully present you show up. You're taking up space, right? Not just physically, but aurally and energetically, and that's very different than just being ornamental and being limbs in space. And so it, it's something that I'm fascinated by, and I'll take it back to, like, Jazz and improvisation, 'cause we worked with a couple of different Jazz musicians this last year, too.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And so I've been sort of r- uh, researching, and, uh, this idea that improvisation does not... It's not as flippant as, like, "I'm just gonna make this up as I go along."
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: It means you have studied.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: You have practiced so that when you need to improvise, you are mentally and physically and spiritually operating on a whole other level, that you don't have to think about it so much.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm.
Christy Bolingbroke: That you can be responsive and listen and, you know, setting aside... I think what I'm also really drawn to, um, with the utmost respect, is like, oh, wow, the, the ability to be human but also let go of the self-consciousness. Because I think that that's something else in dance. We don't teach all other dancers across dance forms to even speak, use their voice, or take up space. And so that's one of the reasons I think it's just sho- so powerful inside of this. I wanna circle back around 'cause we were talking about the importance of the cuadro, years of relationship and trust, and what's also been unique to this week's creative residency is, is we, we put together a little pickup chamber group for you of classically trained musicians, uh, who you have had lit- maybe 12 to 15 hours total with, and then we're like, "Let's do a showing."
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah [laughs].
Christy Bolingbroke: What has it been like to translate this work to reach this moment to welcome newcomers into the process? What have you learned from that?
Angelina Ramirez: I wanna credit Misael Barrasa Diaz a lot. Like, he's done... He's a genius musician, and, has had experience working in classical music, through his m- musical journey. And so we kind of were, like, holding onto his shoulders and being like, "Okay," like, "how do we talk to these guys?"
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: "How do we talk to these musicians?" You know? And then I could tell, like... And then you got Carlos and I are just who always, always, like, super excited to be like, "You're about to do something real cool. Like, Flamenco is so cool. Are you ready? Do you know this before? Have you done it? Have you, like..." You know? And Carlos is really good about checking in. Like, "What do you think?" Like, "How are you thinking? What is-
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Angelina Ramirez: "Are you enjoying the process? Do you have any questions?" You know? And so, you know, a- again, like, we can't do what we do without some sort of trust…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:…in everybody involved. It's important for us to hold that, like, compassion, and that, that safety, and that support for them. So it's been ki- it's been a big treat. Like…
Carlos Menchaca: I've loved it.
[Bolingbroke laughs]
Angelina Ramirez: The first, like- Yes ... few notes on the first day, I just was just, like, my tear ducts were just, like, filling. Like, wow.
Christy Bolingbroke: The fullness of that.
Angelina Ramirez: This is really special. You know? And, and what a sweet crew.
Christy Bolingbroke: Oh, yes. Everybody likes it I mean, to, to clarify…
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke:...is, uh, um, University of Akron music students in piano, clarinet, and flute.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Um, and what have you loved about this, Carlos?
Carlos Menchaca: Oh, gosh. Well, yeah, just, again, we've been developing and conceptualizing this for four, maybe five years.
Angelina Ramirez: We c- s- you know, we can't even remember.
Carlos Menchaca: We can't even remember. It's, we can't even remember [Ramirez laughs].
Christy Bolingbroke: Time it works [laughs].
Angelina Ramirez: The timing. Yeah.
Carlos Menchaca: It's been that, it's been that long. Yeah. And, um, yeah, definitely the first moments when we were seeing our, ideas being fleshed out with actual musicians. We were like, "Oh my God, we have an orchestra. Wow."
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: It was, it was definitely, yeah, a big moment. I was just so thrilled at how open they were to playing with us.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Because we, you know, we were working with, I suppose they're all excerpts of, um, you know, pre-composed music of…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Tarantellas ...
Carlos Menchaca: Camille, yeah, the Tarantella- Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...of Camille Saint-Saens, an excerpt from this Fantasia for, harp and violin, which was done by piano and flute, of Saint-Saens as well. And, kind of a structure based on Passacaglia, you know, well-known classical music form. So I wasn't worried about that.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Carlos Menchaca: I knew that that was gonna be do- want, well, you know, d- done.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Like, you know, they get their score and they, they do the thing. I, I... Do we have any other pieces? That's it, right? That's, those are the classical pieces.
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: But…
Angelina Ramirez: But. Yes…go ahead.
Carlos Menchaca: Yes [Ramirez laughs]. But then, you know, talking about this, and even talking about with, with Misael, who we brought on as musical director. We were like, "You know, how, how's it gonna be, like, asking these musicians to, to improvise…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...and, and play around with us?" Like, you know, from the first day we're like, "Okay, kiddos, how are we, how are you guys gonna create this drone effect for us?" You know what I mean? "How are you guys gonna improvise?" We're working on this, this... I, I'm calling it, like, festejo. To me it sounds like this, you know, this Caribbean, this Peruvian rhythm that we wanted to, to bring in after An- Angelina's solo. You know, it's like how do we get them to improt- imp- improvise with us?
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: You know?
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: Jam with us. How's that gonna be? Uh…
Christy Bolingbroke: How quickly can you build trust?
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah. I mean, I, I felt right away. I mean, I think they, they just went for it, all of them. Um…
Angelina Ramirez: And I mean, I think this part in particular, all... This is our first time for all of us.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah.
Angelina Ramirez: Like, working with this rhythm and, like, developing within this, that rhythm structure, and so-
Carlos Menchaca: Our, our phase...
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah, like…
Carlos Menchaca: A structured improvisation.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, yeah.
Carlos Menchaca: No, but I thought they dived in.
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah, they did.
Carlos Menchaca: And that really just, their, their contributions to the exercise…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...like, just inspired me, us, I think, so much to I don't know. It's, it's one of our, it's one of our bangin'-est numbers [Ramirez laughs]. But, yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: I... I mean, that's... Also as a witness, it did not feel tentative. And that…
Carlos Menchaca: Not at all, yeah...
Christy Bolingbroke: All in-ness…
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...from musician...The whole team…
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...even with the expanded, you know, the, the, the deeper bench, I guess, to continue with the sports metaphor.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: I was like, "Oh. Oh, oh, okay."
Carlos Menchaca: They're going.
Christy Bolingbroke:…everyone's really putting themselves out there…
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm
Christy Bolingbroke:...in an exciting way. I'll bring it back to the movement and the dance. You know, we had talked about this being a place to transcribe Flamenco's rhythms to instruments that are not usually heard in Flamenco…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...while welcoming the piano, the flute, the clarinet.
Carlos Menchaca: And there's lot of Flamenco flautists and lots of Flamenco piano- pianists.
Christy Bolingbroke: There is.
Carlos Menchaca: There are, there are. There are. There are, certainly.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. But I think part of it with your- years of practice and respect for the traditions, where do you think you're finding new muscles choreographically…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm.
Christy Bolingbroke:…and movement-wise, and where are you relying on some of the existing training? And, and part of it is there was a reason you didn't want to go with a traditional flam- you know, flautist in Flamenco. You are- were looking to ex- explore some of the untested and the new.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: What has that been like for you movement-wise?
[Ramirez laughs]
Carlos Menchaca: I mean, the, the driving force of this whole work, of the, the whole, the, the, the, the evening, the, the show that we've put together was the Tarantella of Camille Saint-Saens. And I, you know, we've been doing Flamenco vocabulary to classical music for forever, but the typical is you do it to a Spanish composer.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: You know? Spanish classical music. We've, you know, that, that's been done for ages. Angie and I initially kind of started this project even thinking about calling it a quiet dance…
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:…or a concept that I had for many years and have, have s- some pieces, some…
Christy Bolingbroke: I think some of the early work samples I saw, there w- there was no music in the background, perhaps.
Carlos Menchaca: Right. Yeah. Or, or no music, or no shoes.
Christy Bolingbroke: No shoes.
Carlos Menchaca: No shoes. Yes. No shoes.
Christy Bolingbroke: I wa- you weren't even standing in those early work samples…
Carlos Menchaca: Oh, that's true. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I was interested to work m- my Flamenco vocabulary in a different way. Honestly, focusing on the movement rather than the footwork. I mean, I, I love footwork. I love the musical capabilities that we have as Flamenco artists, but it can be, um...Sometimes, I don't know, we're limited by the shoe…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Carlos Menchaca:...almost, in terms of how far we're willing to expand our movements..
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...if we have the shoe on. I don't know. These days too, I can- w- we can move pretty far with…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:…the shoe., It was just something for a few years that I was really interested in exploring this concept of a quiet dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm.
Carlos Menchaca: You know, you can sapa- or you can sapa- zapatear or you can pisar but, you know, with the barefoot. You can make noise, but maybe it's body percussion.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: But still, like, the idea is, like, we're relying on just our bodies, not the shoe.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: And that's what makes it a quiet dance. It's also not contemporary dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: It's still Flamen- we're Flamenco practitioners.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: We're Flamenco now. I n- I would never, ever call myself a contemporary dancer.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: I'm a Flamenco dancer. And so even though we mounted this choreography to Camille Saint-Saens' Tarantella, it's not a contemporary choreography. It's a Flamenco choreography. But we don't have shoes, you know? We're not making noise by doing footwork. That was important to me. As we started developing the show, we felt good about these choreographic muscles…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...that we were developing, this new way of looking at movement and, and composition.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: You know, not thinking, oh, a llamaba here, right? Not, not our flamenco tools or our escobilla here or our... After some time, I can't speak for Angelina, but I think the, that the two of us, you know, and, and this is after two years or so, two or th- maybe three years, working in this way, we're like, "You know what? We want our shoes."
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: You know, in this show-
Angelina Ramirez: I mean, we went back and forth- We're
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah…
Angelina Ramirez: for a couple years.
Carlos Menchaca: We did. We went back and forth.
Angelina Ramirez: We were like, "Is this a thing? Is this a whole show without shoes?" Like..
Carlos Menchaca: We did go back and forth.
Angelina Ramirez:…You know?
Christy Bolingbroke: It still feels like a very intentional choice when the shoes are introduced. And not, not just the shoes, but I feel like maybe having played with the absence of shoes for so long.
Carlos Menchaca: We wanted to play with the absence of shoes is exactly right, yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: You have explored and surfaced other elements in your toolbox. Whether it's props, whether it's the, the, um, hands. You know, it's like, oh wait, if the shoes aren't always the beginning and ending place, then what else might become more visible? Angie, what else would you wanna add as far as…
Angelina Ramirez: Uhh [laughs].
Christy Bolingbroke:...like the muscles that you're exploring?
Angelina Ramirez: Well you can't take the Flamenco out of the Flamenco dancer.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: You know? We were, we're working with this piece, a couple pieces of classical music, and we don't have our shoes, but we still have our hands.
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: And we still have our fingers, and we still have y- the floor. We're using...You know, we're still kind of putting an additional layer of rhythms and music to this music.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: You know? So we're, you know, adding that layer. Yeah. I mean, literally my body is tired.
[Everyone laughs]
Carlos Menchaca: We're s- we're so…
Christy Bolingbroke: There's definitely battle scars.
Carlos Menchaca: We're so spent today. I was…
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. Oh.
Carlos Menchaca: We're so spent today.
Angelina Ramirez: Um, and we, and, and the beginning of the process, like Carlos and I, we, asked for a little bit of help. , my, my spouse is a contemporary modern dancer and, and, uh, they worked with us for a little bit, just giving us some tools…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:...of how like to get down on that floor.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:…fast enough and up back on our feet fast enough, or gracefully enough and not like, you know, goom.
Carlos Menchaca: Yeah.
Angelina Ramirez: You know? And so that's also been really quite rewarding is kind of learning how to use our bodies a little bit differently. So it's just giving us... It's just making our movement more rich and, you know? And we're gonna probably sustain that within, like moving forward…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:...with whatever that we do.
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm reminded to, to cite the grant that we had worked on It really was making a statement. "We want people to understand Flamenco's depth beyond its visual appeal, and to grasp the underlying rhythmic language needed for authentic presentation." And I think what you've been talking about by studying the absence of the shoes is finding that underlying rhythmic language that might not always be possibly heard, but it is inherent in the choreography. It is inherent in the relationship that you have with each other, that you have with the musicians, and how you might punctuate it differently when you choose to bring the shoes back. That's amazing too.
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess, like, maybe unintentionally, like, recognizing or, or paying homage to, like, old Flamenco.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm.
Angelina Ramirez: Like, you know, shoes were not there the whole time.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: You know? And there's a history there, and there's some things to look at. And so, maybe...And also, experimenting that time and that era in our bodies…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: …and what that feels like has been, you know, it's, it's... Yeah, it's kinda cool.
Angelina Ramirez: And yeah, like, oh, wow.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: We are doing this [laughs].
Christy Bolingbroke: That you're als0…Well, you're a part of a continuum as well.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And, and this idea of it being an ongoing journey, and not always in a singo- singular, linear way.
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Speaking of the ongoing journey, my last question-
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:...for both of you I'm curious if you might share a favorite piece of advice that either has you've received that keeps you going, or also being the teachers that you are, if you have any advice that you would like to lift up, um, and share. 'Cause we do have a lot of burgeoning dancers and dance students that listen in.
Angelina Ramirez: Go ahead, Carlos.
Carlos Menchaca: Um, Cross train.
Christy Bolingbroke: Cross train.
Carlos Menchaca: Cross train.
Christy Bolingbroke: Say more. Say more.
Carlos Menchaca: Cross train, cross train. Just, uh, you know, it, it gets to a point, especially if you've been dancing for years and years and years, that our body gets so accustomed to it…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:...that, you know, if you're, if you're not cross-training and developing those muscles in, in a way that's very different from. And, you know, we dance six hours a- We're no stranger to rehearsing six or plus hours a day. That's the norm for us.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: But, you know, we're, we're lucky in this piece, talking about the, the different choreographic and physical muscles. Yeah. It, it, it works us in a different way 'cause the movement is a little bit different. You know, even dancing for six hours a day doesn't give you that power, doesn't give you that, endurance that cross-training has. And, you know, my, my teachers or directors would, you know, always say it to me when I was, you know, a, a youngin', but I, I think I did have the idea that, oh, I dance so much…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: …that it's gonna be fine. Well, yes, but if I had myself Had the discipline to cross-train starting earlier, well, that would've been great.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca: I would've loved that. So, that's my advice. Do not underestimate the importance of cross-training. And it can be any...It can be…
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Carlos Menchaca:...literally anything. But, but, you know…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Carlos Menchaca:…choose something that complements and contrasts with the dance form that you do.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Carlos Menchaca: I think it's very important.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. No, I mean, it, it makes me think of particularly in immersive theater or Broadway shows and talking to some dancers that are like, "Yeah, I do eight shows a week. But in the show, I only lift my partner on this one side…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm.
Christy Bolingbroke:…over and over again."
Carlos Menchaca: Hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: So, like, while we benefit from repetition in our, in our practices, there's also a downside 'cause the rep…
Carlos Menchaca: Imbalance. Imbalance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And so when you say cross-train, I immediately go like, "What do I need to do to counter…
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke:…the imbalance
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm
Christy Bolingbroke:...that's inherent in, in, you know, repetition?"
Angelina Ramirez: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. Advice, Angie?
Angelina Ramirez: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: Final word?
Angelina Ramirez: It's never too late to start something new, start something again, start over.
Carlos Menchaca: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez: You know, I think just giving yourself some grace 'cause I th- I can, and I know that I am, and we, we are always kind of talking ourselves up. We're good at talking ourselves up to each other.
Carlos Menchaca: Hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:...but sometimes we can be pretty hard on ourselves.
Carlos Menchaca: Hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Angelina Ramirez:…kind of trying to build some tools to kind of be able to recognize that and stop yourself and just say, "Okay, well, you know, maybe it's time for a break, and then I could start over again, or maybe this is on the shelf, and I start something new." It's just kind of like go through that process you know, it's never too late.
Jennifer Edwards: Inside the Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is produced by NCCAkron supported in part by Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio.' Our podcast program is produced by Lisa Niedermeyer of Handmade Future Studio. Rahsaan Cruz is our audio engineer, with transcription by Arushi Singh, theme music by Floco Torres, and cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Nakiasha Moore-Dunson, Dante Fields, Jen Garlando, and Mariclare Hulbert. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.