Today we are excited to share an excerpt of the closing plenary of the 2022 CAR convening facilitated by Ontario, California based arts administrator and professor, Elena Marie Muslar. Elena is the Founder and Chief Empowerment Officer of Confide Creative, a coaching and consulting practice dedicated to the collective cultural and economic progress of pre-professionals and working professionals. She is also Associate Director of Programs at Fractured Atlas, a national nonprofit arts service organization that helps artists and creative businesses thrive and a Lecturer at Loyola Marymount University teaching “Introduction to Business in the Arts.” honored by L.A. County for her leadership in the arts & creative economy, commitment to cultural equity & inclusion, and dedication to community affairs & civic pride. Joining Elena in this Closing Plenary conversation, titled Money, Mindset, and Motivation: Where Artist Meets Enterprise are: New York City-based artist, Antuan Byers, Boston, MA - based artist Indira Goodwine, Durham, NC-based artist jumatatu m. poe, and Miami, FL-based artist Rosie Herrera.
Today we are excited to share an excerpt of the closing plenary of the 2022 CAR convening facilitated by Ontario, California based arts administrator and professor, Elena Marie Muslar. Elena is the Founder and Chief Empowerment Officer of Confide Creative, a coaching and consulting practice dedicated to the collective cultural and economic progress of pre-professionals and working professionals. She is also Associate Director of Programs at Fractured Atlas, a national nonprofit arts service organization that helps artists and creative businesses thrive and a Lecturer at Loyola Marymount University teaching “Introduction to Business in the Arts.” honored by L.A. County for her leadership in the arts & creative economy, commitment to cultural equity & inclusion, and dedication to community affairs & civic pride.
Joining Elena in this Closing Plenary conversation, titled Money, Mindset, and Motivation: Where Artist Meets Enterprise are: New York City-based artist, Antuan Byers, Boston, MA - based artist Indira Goodwine, Durham, NC-based artist jumatatu m. poe, and Miami, FL-based artist Rosie Herrera.
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography at the University of Akron. This episode was recorded in the presence of a live audience in June of 2022, during the inaugural “Creative Administration Research Summit” convening in Akron, Ohio. Today, we're excited to share an excerpt of the closing plenary, facilitated by Ontario, California-based arts administrator and professor Elena Marie Muslar. Elena is the Founder and Chief Empowerment Officer of Confide Creative, a coaching and consulting practice dedicated to the collective, cultural, and economic progress of pre professionals and working professionals. She’s also Associate Director of Programs at Fractured Atlas, a national nonprofit arts service organization that helps artists and creative businesses thrive. And she's a Lecturer at Loyola Marymount University, teaching “Introduction to Business in the Arts.” She’s been honored by LA County for her leadership in the arts and creative economy, for her commitment to cultural equity and inclusion, and dedication to community affairs and civic pride. Joining Elena, in this closing plenary conversation titled “Money, Mindset, & Motivation: Where Artists Meets Enterprise,” are New York City-based artist Antuan Byers, Boston-based artist Indira Goodwine, Durham, North Carolina-based artist jumatatu poe, and Miami, Florida-based artist Rosie Herrera.
CHRISTIE BOLINGBROKE: But we hope that you will also avail yourself of coffee, water, some snacks still available in the back. Keep up your strength to fuel the mind, fuel the conversation. If we haven't met and we do that is maybe possible, we have some guests that have joined us because this is open to the public. My name is Christie Bolingbroke. I'm the Executive Artistic Director for the National Center for Choreography here in Akron, Ohio. And what have we been doing all week. Really all week this has been penultimate moment, two years in the making. Our Creative Admin Research Program at NCC Akron has 19 teams across 16 states, including both lead artists and thought partners. And what is Creative Administration? NCC Akron is a research and development space to advance dance on the national landscape. And something that we recognized and are super grateful that the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation agreed with us on is that we can help new work get made. But if we don't also invest time and energy and effort, experimenting and exploring to make a better dance ecology, then to what extent are we being complicit in the broken system that so many of us have inherited? So it's not just about what's your next piece? Or what are you making, but also how we do business. And that's where CAR came in. Creative Admin Research offers up the hypothesis that there isn't one way of making dances. So there also shouldn't be just one way of doing dance business. So let's interrogate quote unquote best practices. Let's shed some of those. Let's find new ways of doing things and make intentional decisions, experimenting with the administration that we want to proceed. Super exciting! Because I feel it y'all. I don't know about you, did anyone else feel it this week? All right. You felt it a little bit. A lot, a lot is good. And I'm very grateful to welcome to the stage if they want to come on up. Elena Muslar is going to be our moderator, also has been a part of our convening committee. I'm going to vamp while they come up and take a seat to acknowledge our other convening committee members who worked with us over many months. Indira Goodwine, like the wine that you drink. Arnie Tunstall, Nicole Mullet, Silas Reiner, Roger Feather Kelly, Haley Smizer, Kat Wentz, and Jennifer Edwards all worked with us as convening committee members. Special thanks goes out to the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation as the lead sponsor for this program. You can find more program information bios for our speakers and artists today by scanning the QR code. Thank you Keisha! Keisha Christy, Micah, Sarah, Megan, the entire NCC Akron team and volunteers wouldn't have happened this week without them. Extra special thank you to them as well. Laura was stepping outside. Okay. See, I saw you back there. And we also had additional support to make this week happen from the National Endowment for the Arts. They came in late, but they still came in, right. You know, we submitted last July. And then they confirmed in April, which, you know, this was gonna happen regardless. But we appreciate that too. All right, regardless what their timeline was. So I'm going to turn it over. And really encourage y'all, thank you so much for being generous, and open and transparent and vulnerable, because this is all still a work-in- process. But at NCC Akron, we love process. So let's do it.
ELENA MUSLAR: Y'all can hear me. I don't know if I'm just projecting or the Oh, it's working. There we go. My theater voice. Hello, everyone. I'm super excited to be here, as Christy mentioned, I am Elena Musar. And we're just gonna chat, we're gonna have a chat about where money and mindset is in conversation with each other and where we sit with, you know, the realities around what power money holds over us, as artists, as administrators, and how are we in dialogue with that in a healthy and conscious way? So I'm, I'm excited to dig into this with my panelists here, my illustrious panel, about you know, where the motivation sits, besides the need, besides the need to make rent? Besides, you know, all of the things that are the basic necessities, like where do we actually start to think about what money can do for us, or what we don't need to accept money for? So for me, this conversation is really looking at how are we internally shaping and shifting our relationship to money and the power that it has within us, over us? Based in our decision making skills, or even our own sense of self-worth? And also, like, what is the value of the work that we do? And who who is it that has access to that valuable work? How do we shepherd that access? How do we decide when we do share access or when we don't, in terms of the impact we want to have on the world as artists. So I'm excited to dig into this with these wonderful folks. And they have an idea of some of the things I'm going to ask them, so we'll see what they say. So let's let's kick it off. So my first question or really invitation is if we could just go down the line and just share with us your name so everyone know who's who even know what I mean, you know, the QR code and the bios and whatnot. Your name and then two or three words-- I like three if you can get there and do it, if not all good-- that explain like what grounds you or anchors you in your creative practice? Just to get an idea, sense of like, what's the footing we are each on here? All right. You want to take it away..?
ANTUAN BYERS:Well, I can take it away. Hey ya’all, my name is Antuan Byers. My pronouns are he and him. I'm from Lenapehoking/New York. And three words that ground me are community, curiosity, and ancestors.
ELENA MUSLAR: Hmm, I love that. Thank you community curiosity and ancestors. Perfect. So keep that in mind as Antuan answers, questions, like where that that sits? And then what are those decisions that come out of understanding that grounding that framework for you?
ROSIE HERRERA: I was hoping [Muslar: It is] I was hoping I would go last so that I could like do a little plagiarizing on the way. But I really, the only word that really comes as the ocean. That's the main, that's the first word it could be. It could be three words I'd say three ways but the ocean, ancestors, and joy [Muslar: Wonderful].
JUMATATU POE: I'm jumatatu. My pronouns are flexible. I'm currently living in Durham, North Carolina. You live there too? Oh, really? Yeah, I'll be there. After a long time in Philadelphia, and then and then I'm originally from California [Muslar: Represent] Where are you from?
ELENA MUSLAR: I'm from South Central LA. Where are you from?
JUMATATU POE: I was born in San Jose. I lived in Santa Cruz, Sacramento, San Diego
ELENA MUSLAR: Oh, you just came all the way down but skipped my area. Okay!
JUMATATU POE: I've been learning. I've been doing a lot of genealogy work and learning just how much movement for generation…I mean, you know, the kind of larger communal migration patterns, but just how much movement there has been. And so I identify as a voyager. That's not one of my words [Muslar: I was like where the word at, are you going to tie this together for us?] Okay, so my words are transformation. care, and confusion.
ELENA MUSLAR: Hmm. Great. Yeah, but you're, you're, you're inspired. You're not stealing. You're inspired. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you jumatatu.
INDIRA GOODWINE: Hi, everyone. My name is Indira Goodwine. My pronouns are she/her. I currently reside on the Najve land in New York City. And I have to start by saying this to give framing of course. So I'm an artist before I'm an administrator before I'm a funder. And I think it's important to just acknowledge all of the things that hopefully I will bring to this conversation. And with that, I'm going to use a dance analogy. So everyone who's a dancer in this space knows about RICE, right? Come on rest, ice, compression, elevation. And this is usually used, if you have some sort of injury, and you're looking to have a space of healing, to get over that injury, right and possibly increase your flexibility. So for me, I've shifted that in my work to stand for responsibility, integrity, compassion, and enthusiasm. So in my work as a funder, those are things that ground me.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes, come through. So I just created a poem, y'all. That's…it was all about poetry right here, poetry in motion. I really love the way that you've redefined that and reclaimed that for yourself. And as a way to, in a way, I think it's interesting because it still keeps you grounded in where you came from, in what you started with.
INDIRA GOODWINE: And I mean, I think the thing for me is also when we, when we think about creative practice, even in an administration, we still have creative practice. And one of the things for me, that's really important is how I start my day. So as much as I'm not warming up in the studio anymore, there's still a warm up to do administrative work [Muslar: Oh, yes] right? Outside of the training and the skill set, and all of that, there is still a certain mindset that you need to have, when you are thinking about the ways in which you want to impact the artists, the communities, the presenters, the larger ecology that you work with. And so for me doing that is yes, keeping me in, oh, I'm still a dancer first. And so how do I bring all of that even when I'm at this desk? [Muslar: Yes] when I'm in these meetings, you know, how do I bring all of that? So it's very important.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes, it's, it's that impact in conversation with, what's the form of interaction that you choose to have, and, and how have you invested in yourself first, in order to engage at that level? And that investment is a different form of what we're talking about. Like, what is what is that investment of self that we have to do in order to do the work that we're meant to do? So as y'all think about maybe some of the experiences you've had with whatever hat you wear, I think we're all artists, we're all administrators, we're all, all of these things, whether you like it or not, you know. The, it's just how much of that do you choose to do or how much of that do you delegate in terms of your your work and your responsibilities? So as you're thinking about the responsibilities you hold with whatever seat of power you come from, what's an experience that's maybe tested you in your work, in your practice and your creative practice? Hmmm okay, well.
INDIRA GOODWINE: Ancestors, ancestors.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes, yes. They said that test is here. All right. So yeah, like what's something that test you tested you and your work? And maybe what did you have to invest or pour into yourself to help you navigate through that situation? jumatatu, I see you like, like, no, I just like, like, watching the memory, like, wash over you, and I'm curious [poe: Oh okay] Mmm, yes indeed.
JUMATATU POE: The, so we got this question in advance. And there were a couple of different options that I was thinking about. I feel like the one [unclear phrase]. In the fall of 2021, the group of artistic collaborators and myself that had been working on a project, a series of projects called Let ‘Im Move You were touring to six cities. One of those cities was Portland, Oregon, with with an institution called PICA, Portland Institute for Contemporary Art. And what we were doing there, there's different elements to this project. It involves, it's a project that is grounded in black majorette culture and dances coming from the south, and southern US states. And there's kind of three prongs that we were focused on: focused on performing within the spaces that housed kind of these, you know, like art institutions, black box theater spaces, white box, gallery spaces, converted warehouse spaces, and then also the kind of audience following the cultural hegemonies present in the architecture in the kind of cultivation of audience communities in the relationship between where that where the institution is and who, who's been displaced for it to be there. That kind of that that aspect, then there's the the second prong is performing outside on sidewalks in and alleyways in black communities, whether that's historically black, or predominantly black, getting ready to be historically black, you know? And then what are the and then the third prong is the, the queer party space, when that's a club space, and that that performance is usually the most stealth, you know, like secret, and, you know, almost nobody knows is going on, and unless they're really looking for it. And in each of those, we're thinking about what is the intervention happening with this group of black queer performers that we're taking doing these majorette dances in the spaces dealing with the kind of possibilities and limitations that are prepared to meet us, and then when we do when we get them? So importantly, we were dealing with the outdoor element of the work. The, I don’t know, have people been to Portland, Oregon? Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, you know, like that, that kind of the, what that is giving the we were the, there was a major, so the performance route takes is over the course of about a mile. And we pass through Dawson Park, historically black Dawson Park, which has been, you know, you know, revitalized by the city so that all the black people can leave, and, you know, et cetera, and all of those rhythms that are happening all across the world [Muslar: Yeah] all across the world. We have been working with all of the presenters on the tour for a very long time to try to enable the understanding that this work is created with the witnesses that come to see it. And we need a whole lot of black people in those spaces. And you know, like everybody, everybody seemed down. And I don't think that we were naive going into it, you know, we knew that it was going to be a lot of work [Muslar: You had hope] We had hope, and also we were prepared to do a lot of work to be able to realize these works. What we weren't prepared for was the kind of white parade that was ready to meet us in Portland for the performances, which we performed in Portland, we've never seen an audience composition quite like what we saw the day of the first performance. And the day before when we were walking through the performance route through Dawson Park, there had been that, we had already been confronted with some of the hostility that we're always prepared for doing this work [Muslar: Yeah] It was particularly heightened for us to be in you know, like just very casual like sweats and stuff like that. Not even really doing the choreography except for this like little march step that we were doing. And already there was this this group of ostensibly cis men, black cis men who were just not not having it. I'm talking so long, sorry sorry, and so….
ELENA MUSLAR: What my, this is important. And I what I would love for you to kind of center on too is you said there's an there's a certain amount we're usually prepared for [poe: Yeah] I'm curious if you can pinpoint what in what is the preparation version? [poe: Yeah] And then what were you unprepared for, and how did you navigate through that unpreparedness? [poe: Yeah] to get to the other side?
JUMATATU POE: We, for this, but this group of performances, we were consistently working with community de-escalators, from the different, who have direct relationships to the performance routes, who have much more information about what it is to be in those spaces. As we, you know, as we're traveling through as we'll pass through, and then we'll leave, you know, performing with local performers who will stay. And so you know, so do what that kind of what that what, how to be prepared for the kind of residue that will leave. And then we always have our own internal de-escalation practices, and just protection practices that we'll do to get ready for the performances. Checking in with one another about how we, how each of us wants to be protected, and how we're willing to offer protection. And then also the protection, the getting ready of being in those spaces, you know, going on those routes, talking to people that will we'll meet going to the city a couple of times before, you know, and it's so so so that’ll…
ELENA MUSLAR: So protection is a part of your creative practice in and of itself [poe: Yeah] and when you were met with this environment, that wasn't what kind of like your layers or levels of protection had gotten to, what was the thing that helped your community, your group get through it?
JUMATATU POE: Right, so when we got there, there was a big eruption of you know, because it's the these these very, this very black, queer aesthetic in the front of the parade, followed by this, you know, hipster whiteness, you know, behind us into this park, where lots of people have been displaced from and so there's this eruption. And one of the things that we did, what do you know that the first thing that we did with the three performers that were centralized in that moment, we looked at one another, to have that moment of check in to remember what we had what we had done to prepare for this, to remember the protections that we were offering into this space that we were asking for. And then we looked to the community, de-escalators. And then we continued, we continued with the performance, we trusted that this was going to resolve itself in the way that we could, and we trusted also that we need to continue moving this through, as quickly as the performance will allow, because it's, because to avoid to avoid any more violence than the ones that were already, the one that had already erupted, verbally, emotionally…
ELENA MUSLAR: So did that, was that trust, the thing that you would say, is what guided you through to the short side. So I think that's really interesting to sit with for a moment, like the conversation between like all of these elements: being prepared with the ability to know what de-escalation feels like, within your group within your community, to have that already set, to understand what are protective measures to then move into remembering those protective measures when you're threatened in environments that…you know, creative practice isn't just this fun, like lalala I get to go dance in the streets, you know. It's it's, you are moving minds, you are changing culture, you are impacting societal shifts, and that work, you have to be mentally ready for it. Yeah, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physical, there in what we call that is maps. Like, I like to do check-ins with people at the beginning of facilitation practices where it's like, where are you at? Mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. And remembering your maps like in these environments can be the difference between if if they feel like you're actually quote unquote successful because successful doesn't always have to be tied to that monetary. You know, What you're receiving in that monetary way. So I appreciate you sharing that, because that's a big part of how we can then get to doing the work that pays us what we deserve, and understands the value of it understand that you're literally at the level of, in my opinion, you know, law enforcement, like you are going into communities. And, you know, 50, 60, 70, 80% of different city budgets, go to our law enforcement, but here we have an artist putting their life on the line for the betterment of our societal health. And so how do we reframe what the work is to commute to, you know, cities, to government officials, to whoever we're trying to get money from, to really understand what is the work that we're doing? And why is it important? And what is the value that really should be tied to it? I, which brings me to my next question. Do any of you feel like the mission that you're on within your creative practice, is it in conversation with financial liberation? And if so, how is that something that's within you, yourself? Or is it something that's that you do in service to others, like your work is related to financial liberation? Or is it something that you've really been conscious of within your practice? It's open to anybody? Yeah…
ANTUAN BYERS:I'll quickly say that I'm a big part of like, what I do is try to pass on whatever information I have to my community. So I resonated with the last question. What stuck out to me was like protection of community. So I just kind of wanted to name that, because that's my challenges. It's easy to like, take the anti-racism workshop, or maybe not easy, but like, it's how do you take those skills and then actually show up and do it? Yeah, that's been just how I wanted to kind of respond to that. And then remind me of the question again…
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, just like, where, because whatever resonates with in you in terms of your creative mission, how is that in conversation with financial liberation for yourself or for the community that you serve?
ANTUAN BYERS:Yeah. So like, really, tangibly I teach budgeting basics for dancers, right. So I think that dancers, black folks [Muslar: Bring that mic, boo] sorry, dancers, black folks, a lot of folks maybe don't have as much access or education around finances, money, I mean all of those things. So somehow, I was able to acquire, acquire that information through research, studying, taking different workshops. And once I realized that, that was something that I saw was lacking in our community, I tried to figure out ways that I could bring that. So teaching it on different levels at different universities, but also offering it for free for folks. Because how are you going to acknowledge that, like the community doesn't, is lacking an understanding of some of these financial things, but then also make it inaccessible for them to get that information? So yeah, that's how I resonate with that question, really, tangibly. And it shows up in a lot of different ways in the work that I do. But that's like a really specific way that that shows up.
ELENA MUSLAR: That's great, does it, does it show up for anyone else in terms of like, how do you, how are how are you in conversation with financial liberation in your work? [Pause] I saw breaths come in, and let them release. Indira, take it away, and then you bring us home?
INDIRA GOODWINE: Yes, it was interesting for me, because when I think about financial liberation within the institution that I work in, I also think about the fact that we're working in systems and structures, even though we're trying to change them in philanthropy, right? So there's a desire to have financial liberation in the work. And then for me, personally, I recognize I sit in the seat of privilege and the role that I have at the organization, right. And I recognize the individual people who helped me to get there as well as the community. So I'm always looking to them, in some ways for guidance, but also to be in deep listening, right? Because I recognize that's a part of what I have to do within my work to then come in and try to change the policy and change the thing and make sure it's accessible, and make sure that we're equitably distributing resources, right, because we know that that hasn't been happening, not only in certain parts of the country, as far as dance is concerned, but certainly within certain forms and aesthetics, whether they're well known or emerging, and being, you know, newly created. So it's interesting, and it's definitely a push in a pool because we're still, you know, working in a specific system, as much as we're trying to break out of that. And so, even institutions, I believe, are looking for financial liberation. They might not all say this, I will speak on behalf of my organization. There's a space within that that we're looking to have so that we can do better work and better service for the artists and communities that we you know, we want to empower and support within their artistic endeavors.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes, I love that you bringing in that institutional perspective because so often it feels, I think it can feel for people that the institutions are over here and I as the artist am over here, but in reality the artist is in the institution, the the there are people who want to liberate and upend the systems and the structures that people are mad at every day. So that's, that's a constant dialogue.
INDIRA GOODWINE: My role because it's, as you said, like the artists are here, the institution is here, and specifically at NIFA, we are what you call an intermediary, right? So we, we have funders, right? So as much as for artists who might receive a grant from the organization, they're like, you are the funder, which like, yes, and actually, we still submit proposals to get funding. Yes, they will also have final reports to do [Muslar: Yeah] And so we do empathize with the artists when they have questions about certain systems we have in place, and we want to try to make those as easy as possible. And at the same time, recognizing that we're, you know, we're in a shift in place to. And I think that's important to recognize as well, because there is a difference between those foundations that are able to give in that way, and then others who might be put under whether certain constraints or certain rules, if you will, in terms of how to redistribute money, right? So like, there's something else to be acknowledged there.
ELENA MUSLAR: Completely. There's always another layer than what meets the eye. What were you going to chime in with?
ROSIE HERRERA: Sort of like a, like, a not fully completed thought?
ELENA MUSLAR: That’s good. We like that. Yeah, express.
ROSIE HERRERA: Thank you. I don't know if my work in it, you know, it's one of those things where it's like you're working towards something, you're following your gut, you're following your instincts and what your values are, and then maybe 10 years later, you zoom out and you're like, wow, it was really focused on, you know, community engagement, or whatever that is, right. And when the first thing that came to mind with this question of financial liberation, is the unpaid labor of dancers. And I it's something I think about all the time as someone who is an employer, sort of that the amount of labor commitment and time of my collaborators, that even though I do pay, and I try to pay as well as I can, and it's not enough, as we always know, it's not enough. All the classes that dancers take, the parking they may pay for, the work that they have to do to be able to be available to me to collaborate with me feels like like a much bigger question, much more important question for me, moving forward. And I think that the pandemic had a way of exposing a lot of that those really unhealthy relationships, especially I didn't preface [unclear word] before my name is Rosie Herrera, I'm from Miami, I'm a choreographer. My pronouns are she/her/señora. And so, in Miami, over the past year and a half we've had like, I don't know, like, Hurricane-forced gentrification, right? Where the Are we now one we’re more expensive than Miam… than New York City. Yeah. We did it! [Muslar: Wow] So we, and this has happened over a year and a half. And so those, the the labor or unpaid labor of the collaborators and myself as well, but my collaborators is much more visible, because people are just getting pushed out, like, so quickly. There's nothing, there's nowhere to go. There's just nowhere to go. We keep getting pushed out. First, it was you know, of our own communities, and then the other ones, and then another one. And I also recognize artists as arbiters of gentrification, as well. But that, that it's clear because the shit hit the fan, so people had to leave. And so I think that's the first thing that comes to mind for me that I, my relationship to liberation will always be raw until I feel like I can liberate my family. You know, my, my dance family, my family, too, but my dance family.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, I think that's interesting. It kind of got me thinking about because you said family, so that took my brain to generational wealth and like…[Herrera: What’s that?] Well, you know, it's, it's more so thinking about like, what, what do people have access to based on [Herrera: Yeah]where they are in the generations that came before them in and where does that wealth sit? And so when we look at what equity is, that's a whole other can of worms because equity isn't about okay, we're all starting from the realization that equity, diversity and inclusion exists and we need to make things better. We're starting from a place where there were people who haven't had access to any resources to be able to live the life that maybe this other person who took the same amount of dance classes had. This person was on scholarship, or this person had to work to take those dance classes, whereas this person's family was able to pay for all those dance classes. And now, both of those people have come out and are applying to the same job or in the same company. But and now they're making the same, but not but they aren't really they aren't. And that same dollar doesn't pay for things in the same way it would if, if that other person had access to the means that basically the other person did have access to. So when you talk about taking care of your dance family, I think I think that I think about self-preservation first and in conversation with financial liberation. And then what does that mean, once…
ROSIE HERRERA: You have to put your mask on before you put the in the plane there was like adjust your mask before you attempt to put your mask on….
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes. Yeah. And within that context, generational wealth is very much tied to generational trauma. And what is your familial relationship to money? What is your consciousness or understanding of like, debt or relationship to, you know, even accepting money, accepting help, like, how many of us were on welfare? Or how many of us had to, you know, have anxiety around handouts, and our entire arts ecosystem is like, based or nonprofit, or its ecosystem is based on asking for money from somebody. And then you look outside and you pass by people who are on the street asking for money. And you think about what is an artist? You know, when something when you say, Hi, I'm an artist to any Joe Schmo walking down the street. They're like, oh, there are struggling artist, oh, they’re a starving artist. And so just like all of the associations that can come with, like, what does money even mean to us? And I feel like, it's really interesting, because you share that you're also teaching, I teach too, Business in the Arts. So how have you sort of seen, you know, some of that trauma come up or not? Or just like, what has your relationship to things been?
ANTUAN BYERS:So just to your last point, yeah, I like to always say that it's a privilege to be able to work for free. And I say that over and over again, because not everybody gets to show up to the free gig, right? You have to have access to something else to make that happen, right, or rich partner rich family, you also have to have the ability, right to work those other jobs. We don't talk about that enough [Muslar: Literally being able to] Right literally. And then just to your second question, I wanted to edit a little bit of what I said earlier, I think that dancers, black folks, we do, we are financially literate, because we've had to be I think it just doesn't show up in the ways that we praise, right. Like, we talked about this yesterday. We know how to stretch a dollar. Right, like, [Muslar: unclear phrase] Right, Right, so I think, yeah, definitely the trauma has come up, I think you just see it in the, the information that's not there. I think people's relationship with money, that's something I'm also trying to shift. I think that for a lot of people, their money runs them. And I'm trying to teach people how to run their money. So I think it's just kind of shifting the way we view money and our relationship with it. That's been interesting to explore [Muslar: Yeah].
ROSIE HERRERA: Can I also add like the, can we take a minute to just recognize, like, the shame that also comes from, from having money, and the way that people perform that shame in spaces and artist spaces. Like, that's daunting, you know, and you feel it and you you know, you know, like and this happens to me a lot is like, the one dancer I have that has like that doesn't work and has like a wealthy husband and blah, blah, blah, she's the one that's like, are you going to be reimbursing my luggage and I'm like, you want me to perform that I don't know that you don't have to fucking work. Don't make me do that. Don't make me, I'll reimburse your luggage but don't make me have to perform that you're on the same page as this person who's barely scraping by that is something that I am coming up against right now. But that that it it irks me in a deep way that I and I I'm still sort of trying to build language around that and in a healthy way, learn how to express what my needs are and what my boundaries are in those spaces. Because that shame is palpable. I don't know if you guys have felt it, you know, or and how it changes the creative process.
ANTUAN BYERS:That for me is like, I think there just needs to be more transparency. Yeah, that feels important to me. Like an example is I used to dance in a company I'm making enough money, right? But I had a colleague who lived in Midtown, right? And it was a second company connected to a school, so people could look at us and you think, h, you got into that company, so you get to live on 55th and 9th right? So I think that's why the transparency is important, because there's a lot of younger folks who are looking to this, and it's like, oh, this plus this equals that. And then you get there. And that's not what it is. So that's what came up in that for me [Herrera: Yeah, I agree].
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, I'm glad you offered that. jumatatu, something's on your mind.
JUMATATU POE: I think maybe for the past seven or something years, I've had this, projects talking about transparency, and also shame. When I when I was a younger artist, all of that stuff was so mysterious, how people put these things together all the kinds of hidden wealth that people were were coming into that hidden much more than the kind of you know, like the some of the more obvious systemic patterns that people are a part of and in interaction with. And so I have been working on this project of just having, publishing all of the creation budgets for the different projects that I that I've been working on for the past seven years, just because it's, you know, I always had questions about like, oh, well, what are people paying other people you know? What, like, lead people in the lead artists position paying other collaborators on that stuff? And you know, how those how those elements work together? And then we've recently, when I'm talking about we I work with Mariah Weathers as a managing producer. All right, I think is okay [Muslar: Titles] Yeah yeah yeah. But recently, they've been putting up the touring budgets too. So to see like, you know, what, what, what percentage of this money to be able to make this tour possible is coming from grants that we've gotten [Muslar: Yea] or from the contribution from the presenters and stuff like that to demystify some of that stuff. And I'm always the, I think about transparency law, I don't even know if it's the right word unnecessarily anymore, I think I might need to use a new one, because it just feels like it's so popular, I don't even know really what it means anymore, or what direction that it's going in, in service of what. And for me, the trying to make, trying to make logical sense out of, you know, out of the bases that exists within capitalism. That's, I'm not doing that anymore. One of the this choreographer, Nocebo Murray [unclear name] one thing that she told me one time was, uh, in talking about, you know, like, I was working on a grant proposal, and they had all these ethical concerns, whatever. And she was, like, I'm paraphrasing [Muslar: Okay] you know, you've got to get this money, you know, because it's because you shouldn't have to be applying for it anyway. They, it's being held within these foundations within these umm, what did they call it, like, the big like [Muslar: Institutions] endowments [Muslar: endowments] endowments, and, you know, all of these places, that money, those resources were acquired from all kinds of evil manipulation, it shouldn't belong there anyway. It doesn't, it doesn't belong there anyway, in the fact that we have to apply for it, you know. And especially when I'm talking to black and indigenous Turtle Islanders folks about like, you working on budgeting and stuff like that, I'm trying to come from the place of, okay, let's get this money. Let's acquire these resources. You shouldn't have to be applying for it anyways. So let's try and focus. Yes, those ethical concerns are important. Put them where they belong. Look at this as the process of getting money.
ELENA MUSLAR: And I think it's also it's knowing that the money is already yours. Coming in with that mindset, rather than I'm asking, I'm hoping, I'm proving. No. You know you do great work, and the more that you're just clear and confident and what that work is. I think application isn't the word that should even be used, in terms of what it is it's really, it's almost like they're brokering access to funds that should be redistributed to the people that are doing good, good work. And it's also not even it shouldn't be a judgment on the work. I'm on these grant panels is one thing I don't like is anything that is a judgment to the work. The work that needs to be done. No ifs and buts. The money shouldn't be tied to like why you do the work. It should just be here's the money because you do the work. Thank you for that.
ANTUAN BYERS:Take it a step further. Like for me, whose money is it anyway?
ELENA MUSLAR: That's what I'm saying.
ANTUAN BYERS:Who earned that money? I'm not talking about 10 years ago, about 100 years ago, maybe two or three [Muslar: Yeah] That’s what comes up for me, you know what I mean?
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, and I think what you were getting at around transparency is is really interesting because I felt excited about the demystification of things like that. I think there's there's, it's it's a radical word that I think we're looking for. It's not about transparency about like breaking, breaking open, this access to knowledge
ROSIE HERRERA: To me its almost like shared vulnerability in this way.
ELENA MUSLAR: But it's but its, I don’t know, for me, it's rougher than that. It's like, there’s a fight that's happening, and we're in that constant fight to make sure that we're bringing up other people into an environment where they understand what's what they need to know. Yeah.
INDIRA GOODWINE: I'll just offer too, I don't even know that it's a fight. I'm tired of fighting.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, that's fair.
INDIRA GOODWINE: I mean, even even with all of the different experiences that I've had, yes, I'm still tired of having to fight. There are some things, as My grandmama will say that you just gotta burn at the root. [Muslar: Yes, yeah] You just gotta burn it at the root. And that's what we have, we have to go to. And I think about the opening plenary with Marc Bamuthi Joseph talking about like these different four areas, as we think about envisioning for the future. And for me, the growth and collapse space that we were kind of talking about, even as the most challenging one was the trans transform transformation. But the collapse space is very interesting.
ELENA MUSLAR: I think we're in that actually right now [Goodwine: Yeah, I think] I think we're sitting in the collapse. Yeah, I think we're that's why it's hard for us to define it in this moment, and we're searching for words that maybe don't exist yet. Because we're, we're, we're in the process of creation.
INDIRA GOODWINE: Right. And I think this, this reimagining that we're going through, is, is very important. But we still also have to get to the action space. So I love being able to talk about let's imagine, and let's, let's do that. And it's important to be in a dream space, I love being in a dream space. And then we also have to bring that down a little bit to say, okay, and then what is this next motion we're trying to make to really move this, advance this forward? Because if not, we're going to be stuck in just this oh we all know what it could be, what it should be. And then, and then what you know? And so I think that's why especially during this particular season that we've had, there's been so many conversations about that. And I am always interested, and I feel honored when I'm in conversations with artists who at least feel like they could give it to me real maybe that's the relationships that I build with them. And I appreciate that so much, because all of that information is I write, uh huh, yep. Because the artists will lead us. Like, that's the reality, even in a space at a foundation, I'm very clear on where, like, yes, I might be the person working strategically to build out the thing. But the thing itself is really, from the conversations that I've had with artists to be able to make sure that we're showing up in the way that they need. And that's because that's always changing, too. There's not just like, oh, this is what Rosie told me, you know, she needed in 2019. Yeah, that's not the same at the end of 2019, you know what I mean? We're trying to work through remaining nimble remaining, remaining honest, and in integrity with with the way in which we're providing support and wanting to dig deeper. And I think that's going to always require constant communication, and still then still moving into okay, and then how to have the how, right, not just the what, but really getting into the how and that pushing.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah. And in thinking about that how, we have how to get money as artists in a certain amount of lanes that are most talked about. But I'm curious about how, what and how are some of the ways that maybe you all have invested in yourself or, you know, in in other areas of your work, where you've seen a financial return on that investment, where it may or may not have been related to whether or not you got a grant, maybe it's a different stream of income that you created for yourself or your association to investment. Maybe that investment isn't a monetary thing, but it returned financial dividends to you. Is, has there been things that that have come up for you on that? I see some nods. Yeah. jumatatu, you want to go first? So you don't have to pass a right over here. We got we got folks at the ready.
JUMATATU POE: I was nodding because the I was at the non-fungible token conversation yesterday. I was not because I saw friends in the audience, just did the..Anyway, that for me, I have I don't I don't know. I haven't figured that out. What I can tell is that in 2012, I got this fellowship and like, they'll encourage recipients of the fellowship to go into buying real estate in Philly. And I was less than a week from closing on this triplex because, you know, like it not just real estate, but like, you know, a rental property. Yeah, you know, it was less than three weeks of closing on this tri-state, triplex. One of them, the one of the units I was going to live in, and then the other two would be rented out in my West Philly neighborhood, you know, the neighborhood that I had been in for decades. And then I just, I backed out of it, because I just didn't, I couldn't make sense of how not to get so swept away in that rhythm of displacement, knowing that, you know, like, knowing that, okay, the rents that I'm gonna have to charge, you know, are going to contribute to all of that stuff. And I didn't have at the time, I didn't have a strong enough, I didn't have cooperate, strong enough cooperation, or other organizing going on around me to be able to try and make sense of how to, you know, utilize that structure in service of the destruction of it know, that structure that needs to happen, I just didn't, I wasn't I wasn't organized in that way with that particular project. So I guess all I wanted to say is that for for me, I know that the, I don't think it's so much about shame, but just trying to trying to make sense of notions coming out of this economy, like passive income earning and stuff like that, that feel like, like, I'm like, I'm cooking on the flames that everything is burning in, you know, I'm just, it's really hard for it's really hard for me to be imagined and imaginative about that, you know, I mean, like, I can be imaginative about all kinds of things. But that, it just, it just,
ELENA MUSLAR: It's a completely different application.
JUMATATU POE: And it makes me it makes me when you were talking Indira, I was thinking about just the amount of cooperation that needs to be so that the people that are really good at dreaming, but not might not be as good at the hows are in partnership with the people that are doing hows like that that kind of that collaboration, it just feels so so central to really massively destroying and interrupting of this…
ELENA MUSLAR: Yes, yes, we wish to we wish to. I feel like Antuan was going to chime in.
ANTUAN BYERS: So for me, the way I'll answer this question is there's a YouTuber, her name is Maya Washington, and I was really inspired by her and her work. And one thing she did one year was, she's like, she was like, I'm gonna put myself out there for a year, every single day and see what happens. And her brand and everything around her grew so much in that year. So my version of that was like getting on Instagram. And I was like, Okay, I can't do every day. I can do every other day. And I posted on my Instagram account every other day. And my life changed through that. So as I like to answer the question about alternative means of income, I've been able to support myself through social media, also dance and also admin, and then it's transformed into where I don't even really do that much on my social media channels anymore. I'm trying to get back into it. But burnout is real. But I've also been able to take those skills and apply them to other companies and organizations who can also compensate me for my ideas. So the way I'll answer that question is that for me, it was on this idea of investing in yourself. It's also like understanding what you like to do, and what are you into, because I think you talked about what a lot of dancers do is like Pilates, or Gyro. We love it. If you love Pilates and Gyro, you do that Pilates. But don’t like Pilates and Gyro. So I have to find what do I like, right? I don't want to fall into these things. And it's about how can I monetize my passions, right? [Muslar: Exactly] If we're gonna be capitalistic about it, right? How can I monetize my passion? So I like administration, right? I have a knack for like organization and all those things. And I'll step back. I think as a dancer, you're, and we talked about this yesterday, I used to be so embarrassed that I did things other than dance. So embarrassed that I had, that I was good at other stuff. But once I started to lean into those skills that I had, my whole life changed, my life got more comfortable. I was able to support myself off of all my skills, not just dance, right? So not just continuing to go to this industry in this place that you want support from but maybe doesn't have it from you. I explored other things that I was able to do to support myself. So yeah, social media is like the example. But I say that not that, and I always like to be clear about this, whenever I talk about the things I do, it's not so that everyone can go and do exactly what I do [Yeah, it’s find your version] Because that's not what I did. I didn't do exactly what everybody else was doing. I found what I liked, and started doing that and found ways to monetize that. So like, I use that as an example, but I encourage people to find your thing [Muslar: Exactly] and try to figure that out.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, when when I'm working with clients, the way I define that for them is there's a difference between your creative career and a complementary career and understanding not about shame around oh my day job or plan B your backup plan. Like I came from South Central LA with no options for no backup plans. I just needed to have my ducks in a row. And so how many ducks do I need? And what's the row we gonna create?
ANTUAN BYERS:The last thing I want to say too, is like in this so I think what it felt like sometimes for me is that like, say I'm talking about dance, activism, entrepreneurship, which is like three times I used to describe myself, it felt like sometimes I had to figure out how I could fill one cup with all of those things. But this came up to me this morning thinking about we went to El Patron yesterday. And I was trying to figure out which margarita I wanted, right? But then I saw that there was a margarita flight. So I didn't have to pick one margarita. I didn't have to ask for them to put three things…[Muslar: Fly, honey, fly’ Right? I could order three of the margaritas, okay? [Muslar: Yeahs] I think it's about less about how can I fit all this thing in one cup? But what if I have three cups that I can fill up as much as I want?
ELENA MUSLAR: And you have three different conversations you're currently in dialogue with, and you're growing at different paces at different levels in each of those areas. And what I offer a lot is sort of rethink thinking about can that complimentary career aid your creative career? So is there knowledge that you don't have yet that you still need? That if you do this career, where they're like, we're always hiring where we always need bookkeepers, or whatever, and you're like, dang, I don't know jack about bookkeeping, but look at his program that needs more black bookkeepers. I guess I'll do that, because they're gonna let me do it for free, and that's gonna help me understand how to better manage my money. Like finding things to help your other thing can also allow you to feel more confident, and lose some of that shame in the process or shed it. And it because I think we're in a period of like releasing right now. Because that's also like, it's not just about financial liberation. It's also what is financial health look like? Like, knowing that version of yourself that you do want to be or that you want your company to be? Map that out. And do you have the tools or the words to even do that.
ROSIE HERRERA: On both sides of the spectrum: both those that have a lot and both and those that have not. Because the the shame that I am, I have never felt shame about being poor and working. But the shame that I have dealt with the most as a creator is the shame of people who have not had the same journey as me, who are very privileged, and really uncomfortable with sort of dissecting what that is. Granted, you know, I can't just like I've done before, as you know, like, go take this workshop again, I can't do that for everyone. But that feels like a heavier, what is fin- what is financially healthy for the institutional, large organizations? What is that health for them spiritually, emotionally? And how do they bring that energy into different rooms? So not just us, but who's asking the Mark Morris's and the Alvin Ailey's and the large organizations, what do you carry into those rooms? Like, those questions need to be asked. Because I feel sometimes like, for when you're an artist, people are just like, oh, so you're an artist. So like, you don't know, you know, when they're like, Oh, the person that's criticizing you should get shut criticizing should get out of the way of the person getting it done. You know, it's like you should do this, you should do that you should do… like I'm drowning. I'm drowning. I, I'm, I am a full time choreographer. And that is amazing. You know, but the cost has, has often been me. And so I hear these ideas. And I'm like, oh, these are, these are amazing. But the capacity to start to do those things. Like for example, I love being a panelist. I like not just this, but just like reading applications and stuff. And the reason I started doing it, I mean, I'm sure it was a diversity hire for a while, but like, the reason was, because I'm like, I took it super seriously. I was like, oh, I applied for this grant five times before I got it. I'm gonna look at this video with all of my heart. And I'm gonna look at this budget and be like, why did she not pay herself? And I like because I could empathize and put myself in that role. So even outside of like you, like you said Antuan, finding something that you cared about or that you liked, you know, but it's also the care with which you do the work that you're already doing. And I think Tim had said this earlier this week, like that way of thinking that dreaming way of being is an asset. It's a huge asset. And we find our way of making that work for us. I'll give you an example. I was a part of this, like, I don't know what I was doing. I guess I was a choreographer and movement consultant for a company, a theatre company, and the director was like, rough, you know. He was like, giving a lot of exercises to the artists, and not really giving them a lot of information and then just being like, well, that's not it, do it again. That's not it, do it again. That's not it. And they were it was like four hours and they were so drained and they were so exhausted, but he wasn't saying what wasn't working. So I was just like, hey, you seem really frustrated. Why don't you take a break, and I'll take over? I mean, you would have thought I slapped him in the face. He was like, uh no, this is…and I was like, okay, just, it's fine. And the artists that were in that room said to me later, because now I'm working with them on a separate project, that moment of you with care approaching him and saying, I recognize that you're frustrated, and I'm here to help. And also, I know what I'm doing, and give me and delegate, because I know, I know how to take over as well, made them realize, like how toxic that relationship was with that director. And so they changed that relationship. They're like, yeah, when you, you know, totally laid into him. I was I laid into him. I was like, Honey, are you okay? You seem frustrated? Why don't you take a break? It wasn't like, I was like, go outside, calm down.
ELENA MUSLAR: Take a minute, Take a seat.
ROSIE HERRERA: Clearly…I was just with care, but that was radical in that moment so….
ELENA MUSLAR: So I think that's really interesting to think about, like, what is care look like in this work? In this, what we've identified is really heavy, traumatic, intense, emotionally-charged labor. Like they're the one we're trying to get paid for the labor, but then there's the labor and understanding the labor that we're trying to get paid for. So that's that. It's also where do we carve out the space? What does capacity look like to learn? We're gonna learn all these dance steps, like, do we take 10 minutes at the end of each rehearsal, just start talking about some things that we just need to know as a community? And, like, what, what does collective learning look like to not just change us ourselves? You know, as an individual trying to understand what do I need to do? But like, how do we change the field? How do we change our community? How do we change our little group of artists so that we're in dialogue, or we're absorbing the information that we do need in order to start to make more informed decisions? And so when we think about, you know, resources that we may or may not have access to, or things that we've sought out, have there been resources or concepts even that you're currently looking at, or trying to explore, understand better right now to shift yourself into a more comfortable place, with how you manage your your financial liberation?
JUMATATU POE: I'm sorry, Would you repeat that one more time?
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, let’s see if I remember what I said. Really, I guess what I'm getting at is what resources have you either sought out or are there concepts that you're currently trying to unpack for yourself, to deepen that commitment, if you feel like you are committed to your own financial, you know, growth, liberation, release, whatever?
JUMATATU POE: I think for me, the one of the things in working collaboratively and working with performance and working in these within these modes that have to do with communication with people is calibrating the resources, the budgets, etc. So that the, so that they are in consideration of the time that it gets to take to get to know somebody, you know. With the the relationships between the group of artists and people at the institutions, the group of artists and the people that are sending money to the work that with the group of artists, and the people that are witnessing the work, you know. What, what is what is the time that it takes to get to know people, and it's a lot you know, and then and then trying to and then for me it's been about, for Mariah and I, it's been about making sure that the people that we're going into partnership with have an understanding of what that investment is [Muslar: Yes] and how much it costs. Oh, God, sorry that I hate putting it that way, but you know, but you know, I mean, the but but that is that you know, a cost something because it's because we have expenses that are accumulating, you know, every day, based on you know, this construction of time that we're within.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah it makes me think of like COLA or whatever, like what's, what's the what's the cost of living increase that artists get and how are you starting to budget for that? Or even thinking just about there's there's resources like Glassdoor when you look for a for a job and you're like, well, what did they make or what did they say about the job? And we can go and look that up easily. And I'm, as I was listening to you almost like, what, what's the version of that? And you were you were talking about how you have your transparency in the budgets and like these sort of things that exist, but like, how can we, you know, break open the system, so that there's more understanding, more care? So there's a, there can be a collective concern rather than these like silos of concern, that are all still trying to talk to each other about like, well, what can we do from the seat that I sit? And what can I do from the seat that we sit in? But where's the collective dialogue and conversation so that there's the care involved? So I really appreciate you kind of bringing that up? If anyone else wants to chime in with like, what resources either you've sought out or concepts you're now reconsidering, as you're moving through your financial journey?
ROSIE HERRERA: I want to follow up that, if it's not overtly stated, as you are both exploring, if it's not overt, it will not happen. You know, and we brought up the work of Emily Johnson and the decolonization writer, that there is the having that information, having it written down means that the organization is like signing. There's so many when we enter into a space, there's all these like, unwritten contracts like that are just sort of understood. But having that it really does change the way that that people engage with you. So like, I just want to say like that, I really appreciate those things being stated being written down and being overt because it will not happen otherwise.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah. Anyone else?
ANTUAN BYERS:What's coming up for me is just kind of to respond what jumatatu said. This stuff costs money [Muslar: Yeah] I think that we think the whole idea thing is gonna be free. And I'm like, open your purse, this costs money. Like it like a simple thing that I talked about at the MET, I am a regular dancer at the metal muscle [unclear phrase] on the board of AGMA. So we work really hard to like, be transparent with all of our signatories contracts, so that I can see exactly what a City Ballet dancer makes, I can see what an Ailey dancer makes. I can see what and then you can see like, why does this apprentice that this company made more than this second year dancer at this company? But that's like a separate conversation. But I think what's coming up to me about resource because that's the word I keep hearing. It's like getting more clear about what you need. And this is something that Sydney Mosley taught me, it's like, we think it's just money that we need. But when you can actually look at those budget lines and get really clear about what you need, there might be a different path forward that's, that's different than a grant. Right? So if I'm, if I'm producing a piece, what do I need, I need a rehearsal space, I need costumes I need etc. And the first thing we think is okay, I need money to get that rather than checking in with your community with the people around you to possibly, you know, work together and share resources [Muslar: Yes] So that's something when I think of resources, like that's what's coming up. For me, it's like really understanding what you need. And it's not just money. And if we can collectively as a community kind of shift that. I think that will move us to a different place.
ELENA MUSLAR: Totally, totally. Indira, was there any last words that you wanted to add? And it's okay if…
INDIRA GOODWINE: No, I will add, it's making me think about invoices.
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, Iwas actually thinking about it, I was thinking about the line items, and like how you define them.
INDIRA GOODWINE: Yeah its more so than like, the budget, right? Because, you know, some of those can be very standard. And it's still questions of like, do I put this here? You know, and how do they know that this is, you know, this is included inside of this? But it also makes me think about when you're invoicing someone like really being clear about, again, talking about costs, and that these ideas, costs, I mean, all artists are consultants. And we want to talk about how much consultants get paid [Muslar: Exactly] There's that….It's like when we really talk about an invoice like, what's my question to artists and something I guess, for consideration as you yes, in the process of creating a new project, or whatever it is that you're doing is like, what is your invoice?
ELENA MUSLAR: And also like, the basics of negotiation. We have, I think, conditioned ourselves to think we only ask for what we need. Heck, no, you're about to ask for that, and then some. Uou better ask for the moon in the stars so then you get what you need. Your wish your want and your walk. Like, what do I wish for that's that's the bare minimum that I ask for, so that maybe I actually get what I need, and then I can play around with that. And also, the community aspect of this makes me think about cooperative economics, makes me think about like, what are ways in which we're not just focused on the singular journey and what is the collective journey, and how are we contributing to that from wherever seat we have at whatever table we're at, we're building? And so I, I love that you brought in the the line item part. And I think that's a great reframing for all of us to leave with. It's like, you are not just whatever insert title. You are that and you are, you are a consultant. So what is your consulting fee? And let it be known. And let it be known.
INDIRA GOODWINE: I'll add to what you just said about negotiation and how that's, you know, very important. Being clear about what's not negotiable.
ELENA MUSLAR: And then knowing when to walk, you won't necessarily get it from somewhere else. Because someone else will take you seriously. If they won't, then they'll be like, okay, well, we didn't support them, that's awkward. And so your next ask…
INDIRA GOODWINE: But that's what I'm saying, like the non-negotiables are also going to be the things that begin to push the industry in the way that we want to see it reimagined, right? Because if not, then we're also having the same conversations, and you are just accepting or starting to accept that this is just what it is, when it really doesn't align with your ethos, ethos, it doesn't align with what it is that you want to do, and the impact that you want to have. And so in order for other things to shift as well, is got to just be like, well, this is what it is [Muslar: Affirming] Yeah. And if that's if that's not, you know, in alignment with what, you know, it seems like you want or you desire, you need that, okay, then this may be isn't the opportunity for me. I'm going to share something that I do say to artists, and you know, some folks in the philanthropic space, they disagree with my approach. And that is fine. But I am coming from a place of compassion [Muslar: Yes] Filling out grant applications is labor. It is laborsome. One of the things that I really encourage artists to do is like, yes, look at the organization and look at the opportunity. It might not align with what it is that you do. And I think because we're sometimes in this scarcity mindset, you know, [Muslar: Yeah, just apply to everything] I'm just gonna apply to everything. And I can understand that. And at the same time, the 30 hours, the 40 hours, the 50 hours that you've possibly spent on this, this one application, you know, [Muslar: you could have done different, you could have been on Instagram] Right, you could have found other ways other ways of getting support, not only for yourself, personally, but maybe for some of your creative projects. So I always encourage Arcia [unclear word], look at the organization, what are they doing? Is it in alignment with what it is that you want to do? Do you feel like the work that you're doing is really going to be able to be as impactful as you want by having this particular kind of support? And sometimes that answer is yes. And sometimes that answer is no, because maybe that organization has work to do to get on your level [Muslar: Yes, yeah] You know what I'm saying?
ELENA MUSLAR: Yeah, that and that was the same thing when we look at, you know, what, what places do we want to be presented at? Like, do they align with us? Do the same thing with your money— Where does it come from? And why do you want to thank them at the beginning of your show, like really? So, you know, with all of this dialogue that we've had, I think there's a lot here to sit with. One it's, do I care enough about myself and the journey that I'm on with the community that I have to invest my time, my, my energy, my spirit, into what it really means to build and sustain the work? And am I surrounding myself with the right people to do that, who are learning and leveling up with me? And I think that the more that we, we commit to this work, the better for the field at large. And I want to thank the panelists for being open, transparent, vulnerable, and real with us today. And you know, let's just give everyone a round of applause. Because it's real. And with that, we gottta cut it. So thank God, thank you for coming.
CHRISTIE BOLINGBROKE Another round of applause for all of our panelists. I have no more content to throw at you anyone else. full, full. This is our last moment altogether. Another huge thank you for the time the labor the extra effort, the perseverance to get here to be a part of it. Eleana has been on a journey this week, y'all. Thank you. I have a little bit of logistics. Many of you have inquired like how, how am I gonna stay in touch with my new friends? Yes, that's part of our vision is how do we visualize the network? People are doing this work all across the country. Stay connected. And out of our many intake surveys— I'm looking at Kat who did that labor. Yes. One of the questions you answered was to give consent to share your email address. So we will be sending that list out to those that opted in next week. Enjoy the weekend. Rest of that. We have a handful of folks who have elected for one more activity because you are that enthusiastic and excited to design a creative and joyful life. The Design Thinking workshop, people who signed up, you're going to meet Christy or Megan in the back of the room. They'll walk you up there. It is a tight turnaround, but it's not super far. And the good news is you have lunch waiting for you. All right. So help us expedite while you say goodbye to your friends, to make sure that you can maximize the rest of your afternoon with that. Thank you all so so much. This has been a real highlight personally and professionally. And I really really appreciate it.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside The Dancer’s Studio Lunchtime Talk Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. Ellis Rovin is our composer and editor. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Kat Wentz and the team on the ground in Akron, Ohio. To learn more about NCC Akron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Please share with your friends and if you’d like to help get the word out rate us, and leave a review on Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay curious.