In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Champaign-Urbana, IL-based choreographer, Abby Zbikowski. Abby is the founder of the company Abby Z and the New Utility. She is a 2020 United States Artists Fellow and received the 2017 Juried Bessie Award for her work. She is also a professor of Dance at the University of Illinois and on faculty at American Dance Festival.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with Champaign-Urbana, IL-based choreographer, Abby Zbikowski. Abby is the founder of the company Abby Z and the New Utility. She is a 2020 United States Artists Fellow and received the 2017 Juried Bessie Award for her work. She is also a professor of Dance at the University of Illinois and on faculty at American Dance Festival.
Strange Tools by Alva Noe https://g.co/kgs/n9Fdyj
Artist Website: www.abbyznewutility.org
Sandi Scheuber: https://dance.osu.edu/people/hadley.4
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside the Dancer’s Studio where we bring listeners, like you, closer to the creative process. Inside the Dancer’s Studio is a program of The National Center for Choreography at The University of Akron, as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded in the presence of a virtual audience in the Spring of 2021. Today we join Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive / Artistic Director in conversation with Champaign-Urbana, IL-based choreographer and educator Abby Zbikowski. Abby is the founder of the company Abby Z and the New Utility. She is a 2020 United States Artists Fellow and received the 2017 Juried Bessie Award for her work. She is also a professor of Dance at the University of Illinois and on faculty at American Dance Festival.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How or when did you know you wanted to be a choreographer? Can you pinpoint a moment?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Well I, you know, I think I was reviewing these questions as I was trying to get back in and I think my question came up of like what kind of choreographer? Like is there a description of what, cause I think I went through different stages of what that means and where that occupation would bring me or in front of who. I remember the first dance I choreographed, I was like, what, in the first grade in my bedroom to Whitney Houston’s ‘How Will I Know.’ And I think I did, like, 400 pivot step turns in it, you know. Like, there was just something that, I’ve always had a lot of kinetic energy and I grew up in an environment where it wasn’t so weird to express yourself through movement, right? So it wasn’t like a low energy household, whether it was gonna be through sports or, you know, a hundred percent Polish. And my mom was basically like a fly girl for polka bands in the 70s. Like would, she’s from upstate New York and would follow different polka bands and her and my aunt would like have the, you know, traditional Polish garb, but like white patent leather gogo boots with it. So it’s like, yes, dance like being a choreographer was just like this innate, movement was innate and putting it together, but actually knowing beyond, beyond it being this like space where bring communities together or entertain, you know, on a more, and I hate doing the high low art divide, but in a way, you know, I wasn’t really familiar with like staged dances. Like choreographed, you know, like modern dance or ballet, or anything like that. Most of my exposure had been through, like, well, yeah, my mom pulled, you know, these, these Polish picnics. Or music videos, you know, the MTV generation. I wanted to be Tina Landon, who was Janet Jackson’s choreographer for her, you know, Janet album. And, you know, these things, it’s and it, all this information still feels really relevant to how I see dance being able to hold space and operate and kind of draw in. Show its value from a lot of different demographic perspectives, you know. As somebody honoring and knowing, yeah, it’s not, not everybody is versed in the history of modernism and postmodernism and, you know, conceptual art in a way, but that stuff is also not completely not related to these, these references that I’m speaking about. So, so young, and honestly I think like because I am such a mix of so many different, you know, trainings, ways of being, ways I carry myself, I didn’t really see a clear cut place for me in a company when I was growing up, you know. So, so again it was like how do I like, how do I build a space for people with like, not, not identical, you know, situations to mine, but also our in, in this, this inbetween zone.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes, oh my gosh, I mean, there’s so much in all of that. No, that I love because it, it really crosses a spectrum of your experiences as a human being as opposed to saying, I’m gonna be a choreographer and then building some idea from the top down. Rather you’re like, I’m an amalgamation of all of these different experiences and ideas. Almost anthropological when I think about the Polish picnics and also Janet Jackson videos and Whitney Houston, I think I have the same dance also in elementary school. But I’m curious now, where do you start? Like, what inspires an idea for a new work?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: So I, I feel like and you and I have had this conversation in the past, I think I have a very ambitious and like big scope of how I think about dance and want it presented because I want it to be kind of this centerpiece for a lot of people who wouldn’t necessarily come together and care about something or talk about something. Or being in the same room with this piece of art or offering. So I feel like every time I’m starting a new piece, I’m like revamping or like deepening just the whole artistic statement or mission because pieces don’t become, like, the whatever I’ll steal, I’ll steal one of my mentor’s phrases of like the aboutness is not, it’s not going to be literally present in terms of like a narrative inside the thing, it’s gonna be intentionally layered with all of these different points that have a lot of, you know, that, that are, yes it’s, it’s me kind of sculpting and contextualizing my perspective and experience, but really working collaboratively with the movers that I work with. And, and drawing from what they know, their bodies of knowledge, their particular eccentricities, and, you know, all of, cause I. It’s not. Even though I have like, and I’ll talk about myself, I’ll like, I have a very, you know, I’ll be open that it’s like, yeah I have a very atypical dance training background, but that’s also, so do a lot of people. And I think there’s a lot of people who are struggling to kind of like, yeah, where, where can I articulate all of these complex and nuanced ideas in a way, where can I try them out? Where, where can I, where can we think, like, about, about, not just about where we’ve been, but where we can go because of where we’ve been. How we’re, how we’re conditioned, or how we’re, how we’re organized as a result of our environments and all these things. Whether or not it’s this environment that we grew up in and didn’t have a choice, or it’s this thing that we elected to do. What has that set us up to be able to do and what does that mean? So, so I think it’s all of those things. It’s like, just kind of finding, for me, fine-tuning my language, and fine-tuning like reference points that I’m feeling particularly like inspired by or into in the moment.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Do you want to name the mentor who introduced you to the idea of…
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Oh, I’m sorry, Bebe Miller. I’m sorry, Bebe.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Aboutness.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Yeah, at grad, she, she was a, she’s been a huge, you know, influence in the way that I see things and, and not, kind of the letting go of things needing to literally be about something in a very direct and theatrical way, that was a real kind of like, opening a door to like, oh, oh there’s so much more space than, than I just, you know, again, I, I came from, from. I went to Temple for undergrad, I was in Philadelphia and I was exposed, like, being in college, like that was really the first time I was exposed to dance works onstage. And a lot of them were heavily, like, dance theater works. Which is fine, but it wasn’t necessarily the vehicle for the ideas I was having, you know?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah, yeah.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: So it’s just like knowing all these different kind of operational methods of like how work can come to mean stuff and, and live in the world. It’s all, it’s all relative, it’s all, it’s all good. But it’s like how can you be more intentional about what’s going to support what, what you’re, what you’re doing?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah, there’s, there’s kind of two things going on. There’s the creative process when you’re, you’re navigating an idea. You’re, you’re making sort of sense or processing, you know, the amalgamation of experiences you’ve referenced. But then there’s also, how are you navigating the field, when you see something, and I so appreciate and want to lift up your statement of like, I looked around at these companies and I was like, that’s not me. So to carve out your own path as well, and a lot of times people can get swept up by what they see. You know, trends, oh my gosh, everyone’s talking, I need to use that.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Right, but I have to say I think a lot of those companies probably would have looked at me and would have said we’re not for you. Like I think that the reverse probably would have been very much in play.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I think. Yes, yes it goes both ways, and I think that that’s great too cause you don’t have to convince someone to work with you either. Similar to sort of trends that, that happen, I’m curious about how you would choreograph, or, or excuse me, characterize your relationship to sound? You don’t make dances, at least not in recent history to Whitney Houston anymore, so, and a lot of silence actually. Or, natural sounds come in.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: There’s a lot of Whitney Houston that plays in the background of rehearsals. Because rehearsals are this like, you know, they’re, they’re this communal training space, where people are experimenting and, you know, the music can kind of act as a shield between people. So it’s like, ok there’s this buffer between me and the dancers who are kind of going into themselves and working on, you know, this really particular body patterning that’s like, new. You know that, that takes, like a certain level of concentration. Ok, so the relationship to sound is that, I think, I mean I know I organize around rhythm like in my body. I’ll, I’ll understand or I’ll, I’ll have this kind of impulse, or, yeah, an innate understanding of a rhythm I’m trying to work out and how it’s related to, you know, I started off as a, I wanted to be a tapper, like a tap dancer, right? And so tap dance is really having a renaissance right now on, you know, in, in terms of like experimental dance or concert dance, but that was really like my love was this kind of like sense of like, and, and more of like a down and dirty hoofing kind of like, this thing that’s really felt and can be really soothing because it’s felt. But there’s, there's a musicality in that and so, you know, a lot of my training has been in the African diasporic forms, so on top of like wanting to tap, you know, I was. I grew up outside of Philly and I would take in, in this was like the late 90s, early 2000s. I would take a train into Philly and I would take a lot of workshops and classes from Rennie Harris Puremovement dancers. Cause this was like right when hip hop was actually starting to be offered in a dance studio. And so it was like, that, and then also taking, like, you know, West African classes and all of this was at Koresh Dance, Dance Center, which is still in existence. So, so yeah like there was a lot of, there was a lot of through line obviously in terms of rhythm and like letting the body speak, and then like rhythms also kind of holding certain associations. So I am interested in that again, going back to that like anthropological or ethnomusicological, ethnomusicology aspect of it, where it’s like, there’s something stripped down and very punk and utility about what is going on, but there’s also these flavors of these, like, of these, these rhythms that are really carrying the bodies and organizing space and time.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: You know, this series is a part of, what we call it at NCCAkron are ideas in motion and 21st century dance practices, and I feel you’ve alluded to this a little bit, but maybe we could underline that, you know, when you talk about your training being a-typical and really embracing that a lot of today’s dancers and artists have a-typical training. That’s something I would offer back as sort of this difference between 21st century thinking, and 21st century thinking and operations. Can you talk about what it is that you look for in dancers and collaborators?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: So, well people, people who want to consistently show up, you know, for a long time nobody really knew or understood what I was doing because it kind of looked and felt and seemed so different. And, and because of the, the nature of the way it is, it is very body-centric, movement-centric, so it’s exhausting and that can take a lot, that does a lot. You need to be able to protect yourself in that and be able to come back the next day, so, so I do look for people who not like, oh people who, who follow me and take my class, but people who have a genuine interest and do show up. And not is a way, cause there’s no way to show off in this material and do it correctly, cause there is something sort of really interior driving it so you can’t fake it, like that’s the thing. So people who, who know that it’s not easy and keep coming back, there is a characteristic about that kind of person that is of interest to me. Because that, that kind of, that’s a technique too the sort of the mental navigation and all of it like that. Somebody, yeah, I don’t necessarily care what your base training is, but people who are open to kind of like not knowing, people who are open to like not being an expert inside the thing. And again that’s like mental and physical. But a lot of people, you know, there’s. There are people, you know, it might seem like they have an easier time in rehearsals. Like people who’ve been with me for a long time because typically if you have that sort of, that, that sense of, cause a lot of what I will offer in terms of, I’ll work collaboratively, but in terms of what I offer physically will be very specifically rhythmic and dynamic. So having, having done forms in, in any capacity, that has an emphasis on that is usually find helpful. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I want to riff off of a little bit too, you said it’s not, you can’t show off inside of this material. But one of the other sort of shifting I think ideas in dance between 20th century thinking and 21st century dance is definitions of virtuosity. And I’m curious cause I, I have some of my first introductions to your work I have sat in the round and watched fellow audience members just sit mouths agape for 45 minutes, right? They’re just like, what? So how, how do you define or navigate virtuosity either as something that you’re trying to move away from or, or how and when you might embrace it?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Well I think, like, what is virtuosity, it’s not the same to everybody and it’s not always on the surface. It doesn’t live on the surface, it’s not about having the hardest hit, you know? It’s about having the most clearly embodied intention that then extends beyond the body. Like, it, it’s all about scale. And in terms of what the, what the like actually physical term is, choreographically, I’m not interested in everything being on the same scale of like just you know all the time. But finding, finding actually just like you know there’s a real virtuosity in, in, in not taking it to the expected endpoint and veering off to the left and turning it on its head, you know. That, that’s a virtuosity in itself that’s being invented as we’re rehearsing it into existence. So inventing new forms of virtuosity. Virtuosity exists everywhere in everyday labor and physicality. And it’s, I think it also goes back to, I think I might even be conflating notions of technique and virtuosity in what I’m talking about right now, but I think that efficiency and technique, it doesn’t have to look the same for everybody, but it’s like, you know it when you see it, you know? And there’s something really deeply felt and understood and like kind of rings out on this other level when it’s in action. So I also think like for me the unexpected virtuosity and not just to be like this will really give ‘em thrills, but like unexpectedness also in the process of finding what it is when working collaboratively with dancers.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I love hearing you describe that because you know I’ve watched a lot of dance too and sometimes when you’re like, here come the fouette turns, or here, here come you know jump splits, or the sort of like backflips, the tricks. But what you described so much was the context around those things, right? Especially if you can surprise people, as opposed to seeing someone like rush to stage right so they have enough room to do that backflip, that’s not unexpected and that, that sort of next level nuance is really fascinating. And also the idea of efficiency because we know that is what I think dancers do, is they make it look easy so how do you also show the humanness or the labor. Cause we know this is not easy. Yeah.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: And I don’t, I don’t. I think it’s like, there, I think dancers find in the work especially like evening-length works, where it’s like they find that spot where it’s like ok, my showing of the labor, labor in this moment is like gratuitous and not necessarily, so it’s like, like really kind of finding that ok how can actually showing the labor, it’s not an act, how can this support me to stand it? So it’s not, nothing’s being put on as a byproduct of, but there are certain ways of like breathing that aren’t very like dramatic, well that are dramatic but not in like this idea of like shorter inhales and longer exhales in order to like get your anxiousness and your breath back together. Like that’s not very, that doesn’t read drama in the same way as like, does. But it’s a tactic, so it’s like, actually like what is the functionality of these tactics of expressing like what’s gonna create the efficiency. Because there is a lot of, like you can see the body working, but what are the things that are gonna actually help it.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Some of our friends tuning in reflect that back that there’s an honesty that comes up in your work. And we also have a question, Rory is interested if any of your works have ended up being nothing like you originally set them out to be?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Yeah, I think that’s my friend Rory from San Francisco.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: We have people from Tai Pei, from Texas, yes. We’re global.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Yes. Yeah all of the work ends up not, from my, from, from my brain, you know, I see the difference, right? So a lot of my work will have, you know, a driving physicality, an emphasis on rhythm, all of that. But I will see kind of how these elements are being utilized differently and it might register on a different scale, but for me I’ll find, you know, it’s that process of, if you are, if I’m not interested in the things that we already know how to do so much. It’s that what is the new application, what is the new utility? Like what is the you know the, and that name I know it’s like, if people question the name or they feel funny. But it’s like, it’s like...
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: It’s like naming your company.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: But also it’s kind of like somebody, somebody had mentioned the other day, they were like, oh that sounds like a Prince backup band. And I’m like yeah, exactly, like that’s exactly right. Like I want it to kind of hold that space of like it’s conceptual but it’s also a Prince backup band name. But it’s not a, so I’ll see it as not being exactly what I had envisioned and to be honest I feel like the, the most successful works I’ve had started from a point where I didn't have to write about them or talk about them first. Cause words are limiting and confining so I, I think these processes where I’ve been able to just, you know, have that urge to like in the body to kind of just start digging around with something and playing with people have been the most successful. But I don’t, I don’t a hundred percent know the outcome. And I also know that like, yeah the work is never done, the product is never, you know, no one's ever satisfied. It’s not like, oh satisfaction’s like, oh is this fully realized, and it takes a long time for things to become fully realized, especially evening length stuff, cause it’s grueling.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Well, even thinking that your dance making is a form of research. And so I think about any other academic colleagues who also grapple, making up as they’re doing that research, testing it out. How do you continue to show up in your, find yourself in a rut or it’s just, you know, like moving through molasses and yet, you’re working against something, or that’s when you have access to rehearsal space. Do you have any sort of creative tools that allow you to push through the moments?
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Yeah, I, I think now like in the pandemic its allowed me to see what they are more than when I am, cause I had been going so full throttle, cause I live in Illinois, I was working in New York, like so much back and forth. And I was always just go, go, go, go, go. And something about the last piece I was working on, there’s a lot of good ideas, but there wasn’t enough space around the ideas and I couldn’t see that because my like, my own BPM was like, here, like was off the charts all the time, so I was calibrated to this whole other degree of speed and intensity that is like, oh actually if we were to like walk it down and then like now I would see, oh I need to create more space in order to, to show. It’s like, it’s the inbetween, even the in between actions that there’s potential in. These moments of not just nailing the thing and moving on, but like I even see in my technique classes, the technique is in the transition. How are you going from one thing to the next, what is the evolution of this idea in the body, whether it’s rhythmic or spatial, about your weight, about whatever, what is it? What’s, what’s the story you’re telling? What’s the star of the show? Yeah, does that answer your question?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: It totally did! I love that idea of realizing you didn’t have enough space around an idea. It feels that’s, that’s, any time you’re in a process or trying to be creative and force it, it needs still some room to breathe. It looks different for a lot of people, it, in the spirit of recognizing that and acknowledging our time, our last question which is to invite you to share either some of your own advice or the best that you’ve ever received in navigating a creative life.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: This came from Susan Hadley who taught, oh you know Mark Morris so you know Susan Hadley, yeah? She was a professor at Ohio State when I was there for my grad degree. And she, she said something in a comp class and it translates to so many things in life, but it’s like, just do more of the thing you’re doing. Like, there’s also so much advice that is like, consider this, consider da, da, da, da, da. And derails a lot of these like people actually going a little bit more headfirst in a, in a direction that is less easy to articulate or less identifiable upfront, right? So, so it’s like yeah. In, in, in that saying alone I’m like, ok so take a risk, don’t shy away, don’t be afraid to be different. And for me it’s like I come in and out of being considered cool or not cool, like totally weird. So cool or not cool is irrelevant to me. So it’s just like how can you like, also like stay in your, stay in your lane even if people are have a lot of action and things going on, how do you maintain the integrity of what it is you’re doing, I know it’s hard to locate that. So it’s like once you can locate that, how can you not be afraid to like live in it a little bit more instead of feeling that you have to move into the next thing. Because it might be a, it might, like your trajectory might not be about just piece after piece holding a concept or an idea, but it’s like you might be driving this other way of looking or seeing, or, or, or allowing the, the world to engage with dance and physicality that, that will manifest and work in different ways. It’s like I’m a really slow worker and I’m very self-conscious about that, like it takes a long time to know that that’s the thing. And, yeah, I mean I feel like after, after ‘Abandoned Playground,’ my life first you know like big evening length premiere work, Simon Doug gave me the advice, he’s like, don’t feel pressured to be, like a lot of people are going to come up to you and ask you to like make a piece a year, he said, don’t do it. That, he’s like, I don’t see that as being your, your, you know, where your strength will lie. And it was, I mean it’s right. It was nice to hear that from an outside source because it’s not, it’s not like a one-off, one-off. I’ll do that at Universities because it’s a different experience working with students in that way and giving them that like, you know, really quick turnaround experience. That then, and that then there’s this manifestation of a piece, but that, that yeah. And the research with my company outside of that, it’s like pacing. It’s a marathon.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Space. And space around what you do. And clarification that, do more of what you’re doing doesn’t mean in terms of volume or proliferation. Not that making once a year, but that sense of self to be able to translate and double down on how you want to work too. And with some of our friends in the chat too. They appreciate that, Abby, I appreciate you, thank you so much for working with our students, and for dropping knowledge, and experience with us today. I want to give a shout out to all of our friends for their patience, certainly with technology. But also to give you a heads up, in just a month’s time, we will be releasing a season of Inside the Dancer’s Studio as a podcast. We have been recording all of these interviews, you’ll revisit interviews at your own leisure from wherever you tune in and subscribe to podcasts, so if you haven’t already joined our mailing list, the information is in the chat and you’ll be notified as soon as it’s available for free so you can keep doing what you’re doing, thanks so much to everyone, have a great Friday, bye now.
ABBY ZBIKOWSKI: Bye, thank you.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside the Dancer’s Studio lunchtime talk series is supported by NCCAkron, The University of Akron, The University of Akron Foundation, and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards, Ellis Rovin is our composer and editor, transcription by Madeline Greenberg, theme music by Flocco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus, and Julian Curet and Kat Wentz are our artist coordinators. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org and follow us on Instagram or Facebook @nccakron. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thank you for listening and stay curious.