In this episode, NCCAkron’s Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the ‘studio’ with Boston Massachusetts-based Jean Appolon Founder of Jean Appolon Expressions. Appolon’s work blends Haitian folkloric and contemporary dance styles to educate audiences about Haitian culture, traditions, history, and current issues.
Jennifer Edwards: Thank you for joining us for the seventh season of Inside the Dancer’s Studio where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Celebrating a decade of rigorous play and positive failure, NCCAkron is an incubator and hub for dance research and development and serves as a connector, a catalyst, and a cultural matchmaker. Inside the Dancer’s Studio is recorded as an ongoing documentation practice with NCCAkron visiting artists.
Jennifer Edwards: In this episode, NCCAkron’s Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke, enters the ‘studio’ with Boston Massachusetts-based Jean Appolon Founder of Jean Appolon Expressions. Appolon’s work blends Haitian folkloric and contemporary dance styles to educate audiences about Haitian culture, traditions, history, and current issues.
Christy Bolingbroke: I'm very excited to be in Williamstown, Massachusetts. This conversation, this moment of us being in person is five plus years in the making. I am so thrilled to welcome Jean Appolon of Jean Appolon Expressions to the conversation. Hi John.
Jean Appolon: Hi Christy. Good to see you.
Christy Bolingbroke: We're here.
Jean Appolon: We here. We see each other. We touch each other. Which is great.
Christy Boilingbroke: Yes. We're both taller than we thought.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes [laughs]. One of the questions I like to start with is, in your own words, what is choreography?
Jean Appolon: Choreography to me, is a very powerful tool. It's a tool where as movers and dancers, sometimes we refuse to write. And I think choreography really kind of come into energy as a, as a way of expressing
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: As a way of, of really demonstrate what we are feeling.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Jean Appolon: So for me, I, I love to write also too, but I feel like choreography give me this great purview when it comes to sitting down with myself.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Otherwise, with other dancers, other movers to create and to really tell our stories.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm. I love that the where you started, it's a tool, right? Which is not a means to an end, but it's one of the tools that you can use to process.
Jean Appolon: Yeah.
Christy Bolingbroke: The world that we live in. And I know that that also is a big part of your lived experience and the work that you make. When did you explicitly say, I'm gonna be a choreographer.
Jean Appolon: As a young dancer, I always dreamed to dance.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Choreographing was very, something very scary to me because when I see choreography on stage, mostly with many other companies like Frankfurt Ballet.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Alvin Ailey, many other Elisa Monte, like from back in the days sometimes I'm like, how can they process all this work?
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm.
Jean Appolon: And it was very intimidating to me to just think of myself as a choreographer.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mmm.
Jean Appolon: Because I feel like mostly in the United States and also in Europe, when you are choreographing, they're expecting you to really bring so much.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: So much of language, so much of history, so much of something for people to really connect to.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon: And myself, I just wanted to dance, so I'm still in the process now at gonna be 50 very soon to just say that. I am a choreographer and I'm still not feeling comfortable enough to say that because I feel like there's so much process of, of that idea of being a choreographer.
Christy Bolingbroke: So humble, and I think humbling to be reminded that as in dance, in choreography and the act of doing it, we are also constantly aging. We're learning new things. We're taking on more information. The challenge that you described that so much is expected of a choreographer is also what I personally love about dance. It can hold all of these things.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: In a way that words alone cannot, as you said earlier. So in this, I mean, I, I have news for you. You're a choreographer [laughs].
Jean Appolon: Thank you so much.
Christy Bolingbroke: And you didn't need me to tell you, but it, you know, just someone to bounce ideas off of.
Jean Appolon: Thank you.
Christy Bolingbroke: And, and so I'm really curious then what do you look for in dancers and collaborators? Because you are not doing this alone and it is so much to hold.
Jean Appolon: As Mr. Alvin Ailey said it many times, I do not want to have cookie cutter dancers. I want to have dancers or collaborators who really understand that they have a message themselves. I do not want to be the only, of course I can give you 5, 6, 7, 8. Jump here around there, but also I want the dancers to be so open for the dialogue.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And so open to really experiment into the process. So that's what I'm really looking for. I'm not looking for any dancer also to feel like, oh, if you don't give me that, I don't know where you're going. Yes. I have an idea of I would like to bring these glasses on and mix it with something else, and run with it and jump with it. But also the dancers have to translate all this thing that I just mentioned…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon:…to see how they can bring themself into this collaboration that we are doing. to me, the beauty of, of dancing with other folks, it's because like they have something special.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon: It's like a DNA.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: It's like we are connecting our DNA with each other and create something very magical.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes. And that is also what's inherent in the power of dance to be a part of a group, of a community, and maybe never say a word to each other.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: But your DNA has somehow interwoven. Yes. Was there a moment? Because you, you talk about seeing choreographers as a young dancer. Was there a moment where you stopped dancing? Are you still dancing in work? How are you navigating that?
Jean Appolon: I am trying to not dance too much, but I love dancing. That's why I'm still giving classes to the company. I, I always wanted to dance because I have my dance teacher, rest in peace from Haiti, where I came from. Viviane Gauthier who danced until she was 89. And she was teaching until she was 90 something. She died at 99 years old. So for me, I always feel like dance is my only therapy.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: It's my only language that I can really speak. So I never want to stop or putting a limit on me to say like, I'm gonna stop even if I have to walk on stage. Just like Ms. Judith Jamison did in…
Christy Bolingbroke: Mmm.
Jean Appolon:…her ages when she was walking in stage and just said, this is her dancing.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: It's not gonna be a leg, it's not gonna be an arm, but it's gonna be me just showing my presence.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: I think that's very important. So for me, I, watching other choreographers continue to inspire me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Even the young ones that are coming right now with many other style, many other contemporary style, Afrocentric style, even with ballet too, there is a new language.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: I think ballet is starting to really not only stay in classic
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: But they trying to really bring some new languages where people call it contemporary.
Christy Bolingbroke: Right.
Jean Appolon: And for me, I feel like there are room also to, to, to see so many newness.
Christy Boilingbroke: I appreciate you also citing the act dancing less, but still having the presence of showing up like Ms. Jameson would. It, it reminds me to ask, how would you define virtuosity in dance? Do you have, a certain sense of, excellence for lack of a better term, or virtuosity that you are asking your dancers to strive for?
Jean Appolon: The virtuosity I want is that I want the dancers to understand is to be true to yourself. Because until you are true to yourself, the audience can you can touch somebody by not even moving. By just standing there. I've seen many other companies. I think there is a company from Japan who came in, I forgot the name of them, but they came all with like powder on their bodies from head to toe.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And they just stood on stage with a stick and they just moving around like
Christy Boilingbroke: Sankai Juku.
Jean Appolon: Yes. And you were like, oh my God, for 30 minutes I'm just watching them doing this. And it was just transformative. So that's the kind of truth that you have to have. To be able to just stand there and even looking at somebody, for just 15 minutes. For, for that expression to become something more powerful than even yourself.
Christy Boilingbroke: Yeah.
Jean Appolon: It, that's the kind of virtuosity, I'm looking for.
Christy Boilingbroke: I, I've got chills having you describe that because I'm realizing it is truth and stillness, but also truth in motion, which might even be harder to not give away to the momentum, but to stay that groundedness. Um, okay. I, let's talk about music. How would you characterize your choreographic relationship to sound?
Jean Appolon: When I'm starting to choreograph, I never really use music, any sound at all. I really work with the sound. But most of the time the choreography happen before by just walking around, meditating. I do a lot of walking around in any country I am, if I'm in the state. Also too, I walk a lot for that process.
Christy Boilingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon: And by walking I feel like I'm able to start processing the steps that I want to take to really bring a project forward or to create a dance.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Because I feel like when you already focus on the sound, sometimes you are limited the musicians or the the people who's gonna collaborate with you with the sound.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: To just make them feel like they have to create something. And myself, I always create the dance first without no sound. I said, 5, 6, 7, let's run here. Let's jump here. Let's stand here, let's, in the body with each other in that moment. And after that, I'll say to the music, to the musician that collaborating with us, why don't you come into rehearsal and see…
Christy Boilingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon:…what we have already? And they might see the body of work and they said, Jean, I have a piece already that I've worked on 10 years ago.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: I never used it. Can you check that out to see what it's gonna be? But also we are very traditional too. We have…
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon:…live Haitian drummers who also create, and it can be very challenging. The rhythms are already exist.
Christy Boilingbroke: Can you say more about like if there's, I think about the American songbook.
Jean Appolon: Mm-hmm.
Christy Boilingbroke: Or jazz standards. Are there also Haitian drumming?
Jean Appolon: In the folkloric? Yes. Standard in the folkloric, like you have… that you're gonna see in Pouvwa.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: We have [unclear word] that you're gonna see in Pouvwa, and those sounds already exist. But to me it's just, that would be too easy.
Christy Boilingbroke: Okay.
Jean Appolon: For me to call the drummer to say, oh, why don't give me [unclear word] and let's go. No. With that pit I asked them to. Create, leave the base of it there naturally, but also create on top of it.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: I want the drummer now to become more, what do you call that, complex.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mmm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And we have also Val Jeanty, who's, uh, electronic Voodoo traditional electronic player because she does all her things on computer.
Christy Boilingbroke: So I wait, Voodoo traditional. We're gonna have to back up and explain please [laughs].
Jean Appolon: Yes. Because she's at Berkeley, but she's from Haiti.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And she always, she doesn't touch drums too much, but she has all computerized drumming that she used, or electronics that she used to create sound, but she really keep it in the realm of the Voodoo.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Haitian voodoo.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: So for me, this is something that you don't see at all around anyway.
Christy Bolingbroke: I've never heard of it.
Jean Appolon: And when you see Val mixing with the traditional drummers with their live drumming, it just bring you to another world. And it kind of make you see Haiti if you've never been in Haiti before, but it kind of also bring you through the o other parts of the world, you can imagine.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm. Well, and the, the diasporic connections to almost manifest those connections through sound.
Jean Appolon: Yes. It is powerful. It's like, it's like dealing with light.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: Because I feel like light also have something very powerful, a light, even though you put the switch on. But I feel like there's movement, there's motion. So that's where we are when it comes to collaborating with musicians and really using sound to do our work. It's not asking the producer of the music to just produce.
Christy Boilingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: But it's just like us to be ready with the body of workforce, and after that we will ask the musician to come and see what we have.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah. Yeah. That brings up a different question about, re-imagining your relationship to time.
Jean Appolon: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: And if making dances and applying the tool of choreography is starting with a blank page, how do you know when it's done?
Jean Appolon: It's never done. Because I feel like, yes. I, for example, we had this project Traka that we worked on, and it has so much facade. The reason why it's never done, because I never thought that I could be experimenting and just going to any place without having a stage to perform. So when we have many collaborators in Boston said, no, we don't want you to be on stage. We want you to be on the grass with us. Can you do the work on the grass? And I looked at my dancers, I'm like, uh, what is that? And we had, I had to really reimagine how the work can be accessible any place, anywhere.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Jean Appolon: So the timing of the work is never done because we had to rework..
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon:…sometimes the work. And just making it adaptable to the space.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Jean Appolon: So for me, the, the reason why I said it's never done is because everywhere you go, you can reimagine or restructure the work.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: To make it fit the space that you want.
Christy Bolingbroke: and the liveness with all the collaborators, whether it's the dancers or also with the musicians and, and sound, as you can say, look, well in this space, it will now look like this.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: It will be. Oh, fascinating.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: One of the particulars. And we've had the opportunity to write grants together.
Jean Appolon: Mm-hmm.
Christy Bolingbroke: So, you know, I know we can all write.
Jean Appolon: Yes.
Christy Bolingbroke: Uh, how do you name a dance?
Jean Appolon: Ooh, that's another major, major hardship.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm.
Jean Appolon: To name a dance. I think when I was starting to work on Pouvwa five years ago when I was finishing, no, the piece was already done. Traka was already done, and I was already imagine about what should I work on next. But I always wanted to bring the corruptions of, of, of governmental power forward. To just really expose what I've seen, because I've been in many settings in my country and also around the world.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Jean Appolon: Where I've seen governmental power become very stiff and very corrupt. And when I said that to the dancers, and mostly to Megan, who's my executive director, she said, Ooh, that's gonna be very political.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And I'm like, I know, but I would like to do the work. And she said, what would you wanna name it?
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And I'm like, I don't wanna name each dance. Yes, each dance will have their title, but the focus of the work will be about power. And I would like to translate it in Creole, means pouvwa. And she's like, wow, pouvwa. The word sounds very powerful, and we talk to many other folks and they're like, wow, this sounds very great, Jean, but can you give us more detail? So, for me, naming a dance or naming a body of work, it's, it's very challenging. Because sometimes you want to name it something and you feel like after you finish naming it, you're like, oh, I wish I, I didn't do that. I wish I leave it as a blank slate and just be able to call it a name after. But to me it's challenging.
I just, I also remember when I first saw Mr. Bill T. Jones, I think I was in high school still, and I went to a workshop and I saw him because they, they were performing in Boston. And when he start talking about the process. And in a way, I was very scared when I saw him talking about it because yes, he was very mature enough to talk about the process, but he really explained to you that you have to have more care when you are producing work because it's not just like coming in and wanting the dancers to do the the work, but in you, you have to be preparing yourself as a choreographer or as a mover to just really make sure that this work is suitable for everybody else. Even though everybody else might not like it, but when you are presenting the piece, that the piece can be its own voice. So you don't become like, wow, regretting or you don't questioning, you just feeling like I've done this. I leave it out there and it's its own human being now you kind of create
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And anybody want to embrace it? Embrace it, or anybody wanna reject it, we'll reject it.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm. I have one last question please. And you have already named so many, elders and ancestors and mentors, but, uh, this last question is an invitation for you to offer a piece of advice for anyone navigating a creative life and you could choose to uplift a great piece of advice you received.
Jean Appolon: Ooh, thank you, Christy, for this question. I think this question very emotional to me because I just don't want newcomers or people who's really trying to create to feel alone.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon: If you think you can do it alone, that's the worst mistake you can do. Wow. The worst. Because I seen a lot of young kids that I used to teach in different schools around, around the world, I should say, even in Haiti, as soon as they feel like they grasp a notion of a, of a technique, and they feel like they own it now. They want to create [sound of snapping fingers] 1, 2, 3, 4, which is great because I've, this is a very pride moment for me to, we need confidence to see a young kid of mine or an an adult that I had never met to feel like they really want to create. But when you see they wanna be alone in it. I think for you to bring 10, three people around, you need mentorship.
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon: You need people who can inspire you. You need, you need to travel to expand your brain for a minute…
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon:…so you can see, because feeling alone, that can crash you very, very, very easily.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And the crash out will be very dramatic and traumatic. Because to me I feel like every places I've been, even when I was a young kid, maybe 12 or 11, picking up my boombox, going to a empty house in Haiti, dancing with friends. To me, that was a major experience, but I felt like I had people around me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yeah.
Jean Appolon: Because that time I had a bunch of friends of mine were female, maybe two male dancers, but we call ourselves dancers, but we didn't know nothing. And I came with the boombox and everybody said, Jean, go show us the step. And I'm like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3. And for me, the reason why I took the risk is because I felt like I had backups with me.
Christy Bolingbroke: Yes.
Jean Appolon: I had people who really, even though didn't believe in me, but they see that there is a op, you know, potential in me that I can create something.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And by sharing it with them, they were like, oh no, we're not gonna do that. Can we do another step? And they kind of…
Christy Bolingbroke: Hmm.
Jean Appolon:…forced me to really expand myself and continue to feel like I can create. And I think that's what I want. A new kid who's coming in to just really know that, don't sit down by yourself and beat yourself down and be like, no, I want to do this by myself. Don't be selfish. Open yourself up. Find mentorship, find allies. Find folks who really done it before.
Christy Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm.
Jean Appolon: And sometimes sit down and study them. You're not copying them, you are just studying them and just see how the process go. Because by finding their process, you will find your process.
Jennifer Edwards: Inside the Dancer’s Studio Conversation Series is produced by NCCAkron supported in part by Audio-Technica, a global audio manufacturer with U.S. headquarters in Northeast Ohio.' Our podcast program is produced by Lisa Niedermeyer of Handmade Future Studio. Rahsaan Cruz is our audio engineer, with transcription by Arushi Singh, theme music by Floco Torres, and cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to Laura Ellacott, Nakiasha Moore-Dunson, Dante Fields, Jen Garlando, and Mariclare Hulbert. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at nccakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside the Dancer’s Studio. Thanks for listening and stay curious.