In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with two members of the Saint Paul Minnesota-based company BRKFST Dance Company. Lisa “MonaLisa” Berman is the founder and Artistic Director of BRKFST and Joseph "MN Joe" Tran is a founding member of BRKFST and a member of Knuckleheads Cali breaking crew. BRKFST’s egalitarian and virtuosic choreographic collaboration is deeply rooted in the Hip Hop adage, "Each One Teach One": regardless of class, race, experience, age or gender, everyone remains both teacher and student.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with two members of the Saint Paul Minnesota-based company BRKFST Dance Company. Lisa “MonaLisa” Berman is the founder and Artistic Director of BRKFST and Joseph "MN Joe" Tran is a founding member of BRKFST and a member of Knuckleheads Cali breaking crew. BRKFST’s egalitarian and virtuosic choreographic collaboration is deeply rooted in the Hip Hop adage, "Each One Teach One": regardless of class, race, experience, age or gender, everyone remains both teacher and student.
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography at the University of Akron as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded in the presence of a virtual audience in 2023. Today we joined Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive/Artistic Director, in conversation with with 2 members of the Saint Paul Minnesota-based company BRKFST Dance Company. Lisa “MonaLisa” Berman is the founder and Artistic Director of BRKFST and is the recipient of the 2019 Artist Initiative Grant and 2016 McKnight Dancer Fellowship. Joseph "MN Joe" Tran is a founding member of BRKFST and a member of Knuckleheads Cali breaking crew. BRKFST’s egalitarian and virtuosic choreographic collaboration is deeply rooted in the Hip Hop adage, "Each One Teach One": regardless of class, race, experience, age or gender, everyone remains both teacher and student. BRKFST's lineage stems from breaking and hip hop culture: earning respect from battles, receiving real world critique and embodying inclusivity by passing down their knowledge to the new generation. The lived experiences of this collective who identify as working class, queer, femme and BIPOC, inform their compositions.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: We're here to understand more about your creative journey. And so, B-boy, Breaking, B-girl, when did you actually start to sort of own or lean into the title, “choreographer”?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Hmm. Do you wanna start, or?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: That's a great question. So as a B-boy, or Breaker or B-girl, as you come up [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] in the scene, in the Breaking scene, you are meant to be an individual. You, the whole idea should be to create your own moves, create your own style. So in essence, I didn't know the term choreographer when I was a kid, at 13 starting. But you choreograph your own stuff [Berman: Mm-huh] [Bolingbroke: Yeah], like from the beginning [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And so [clears throat]havingstepped into the theater world,in 2014 was the first time I did a theater stage show,I had realized, like, Oh, I have been choreographing, like this whole time [Berman: Mm-huh] since the beginning [Bolingbroke: Yeah]. And then it was from that moment, on the theater stage that I started really considering the term [Bolingbroke: Hmm], was my first thought.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah [Berman: yeah]. What was your experience?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I feel like similarly, I, I started Breaking later [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], in life. I didn't start till I was in college, or outside of college, actually, um,and so before I started with BRKFST, I was dancing with another company, another Hip-Hop company in Minnesota.Andit was just average practice that it was like, come with moves, come with movement. And it, we never really considered ourselves, We’re the choreographer, I'm the choreographer [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. But then moving into BRKFST, again, we were like, Yeah, I guess, I guess we are the choreographers. And it was interesting, because contributing movement, like, each person in BRKFST comes with their own individual style. And so they're also coming with all their own moves, and all their own combos, and like, it's kind of like built-in phrase work [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], that you then start morphing with the other people. Butyeah, it was interesting because it makes me think, when I first, when I applied for the McKnight Fellowship [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], they have the fellowship for dancer and for choreographer [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And it was an interesting moment for me because I was like, Well, I am a dancer, but I've also choreographed all my own stuff, because there was no opportunities for us to be in other works. There was no like, company for us to audition to [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] or like, someone would, nobody wanted us. I mean, nobody wanted Breakers back then. It was like, it was it [Bolingbroke: That's hard to believe]. No, it's, it's like, in terms of the stage work [Bolingbroke: Mmm], it felt like in terms of stage work in Minnesota, it felt like there was really no opportunities unless you make your own [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So it was just making our own stuff from the beginning [Bolingbroke: Wow].Yeah, and so I guess I really started to consider it also when I like applied for the McKnight and I was like, I, I guess I'm both butI'm gonna go with dancer because I, in my head, consider being a choreographer that you're like,doing it for other people. I don't know why [Bolingbroke: Hmm].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: And I actually suggested that you maybeapply for the choreography.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah [Tran: I think]. It was interesting because they were like, Well, I feel like you're too advanced in terms of choreography to just apply for dancer but also, that's confusing [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Yeah. So it was…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And but not just in Breaking, I think what is becoming more and more normalized as we move away from, from codified techniques in 20th century, like a Graham technique or Cunningham [Berman: Hmm] technique, is that dancers are expected to contribute in the room [Berman: Sure]. And even choreographic credit has been changing. If you look at the playbill, and it may lead, you know, list, a lead choreographer in collaboration [Berman: Mm-huh] with the dancers. So from a creative standpoint, then where do you start, when you are facing the blank page, when you are walking into the studio and saying, like, Alright, I want to make a dance?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: That's a good one [Bolingbroke and Tran laugh].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I think, well, at least the last number of shows that we've made as a company, we start by just having a number of rehearsals where we just talk about what we're interested in, or what's affecting us in life, what's inspired us. And just kind of sharing stories, watching film clips, listening to different types of music, and kind of just like, then, moving towards what we all feel like would be an interesting exploration [Bolingbroke: Hmm] for a production. That's how I feel.
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Yeah, for me, I'm always practicing all the time. And so it usually starts with moves or aesthetic. Something like I'm currently obsessed with [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], that I want to share with the group [Berman: Yeah] that I'm exploring, researching. And then I try to [Bolingbroke: Physically in the body, researching?] Physically in the body. Yeah, yeah [Bolingbroke: Okay]. And then I try to find, like a reason, an excuse to use it. You know like [Laughs].All of these little ideas that I've never used in the battle or something like that. It's like, Oh, here's an opportunity. It could serve, perhaps our theatre work [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. For me, it starts in the body most of the time.But yeah, just like what Lisa said, we just are like, What haven't we done yet? [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] [Berman: Yeah] Let's, let's start there [Berman: Mm-huh].
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And how would you describe your creative or choreographic response to music? Because, you know, sometimes people like, I love this song, I need to make a dance to this song. There's, there's sort of a myth that there's a song like deeply embedded in, there's a dance deeply embedded in music, and the choreographer just has to unlock it, which we know is not true [All three laugh]. So I'm, I’m curious. Also, spoiler alert, because I know you've been collaborating with symphonies and orchestras. I don't think people expect that from Breaking [Berman: Mm-huh]. So what do you look for in music? Or how do you consider it in your creative process?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Well, one of our founding members and core members, Renée Copeland,is also a composer and a musician [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so from the very first show, we did the first evening like production, she made our entire, she made our track. So she's been making our tracks, in collaboration with sometimes other musicians, but she puts it all together. And so for us, we're like, kind of spoiled in that. We will be in rehearsal, and, you know, we've talked about a theme or like, a vibe, or something that she kind of just creates with music [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And then we'll listen to it and be like, Nah, not, not exactly what we were thinking. And then she'll tweak it, and come back with something else. And then we kind of go back and forth with that, until we settle on, like, what the vibe of the music is, and then she'll tweak it in rehearsal with us [Bolingbroke: Hmm], to fit our movement. So that was what we were used to, and then going into working with orchestras was a totally different world for us. You can..
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Yeah, we don't normallycreate to preexisting music [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So,we had to really dig deep to find the meaning [Berman: Yeah]of, of what we thought the song was about [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. And so for example, Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, which is a beautiful track, but I don't listen to classical music, none of us really do. We, the first time we heard it, we were like, How do we even dissect this thing? [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: We were like, What? It all sounds the same! [Bolingbroke laughs].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: A monster of a composition. And so what we did was go back into what we do as BRKFST, is just tried to find meaning and like things we're interested in. And then so we found out that like it was Beethoven’s basically last [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] composition he made at the height of his deafness. And then we also research what a “Fuge” meant…
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN:…And also like how people looked at Beethoven at that time [Tran: Right],which is that they were like, This, this, this music is trash [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Like not this music is trash, but they were like not, they did not like it [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] [Tran: It was too contemporary]. Yeah [Bolingbroke: Hmm].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: So we were like, Oh, that's feels like us [Bolingbroke: Yes]. We like to do things that maybe people don't understand [Berman: Mm-huh]. And then we found out that Fuge, I'm paraphrasing, in psychology means, it's like some dissociative [Berman: episode] disorder [Bolingbroke: Mmm].And so we were like, Let's lean into that. And like really make the piece like fractured [Berman: Disjointed], weird [Berman: Yeah]. You jump from state to state. And so, we always go back into like, concept world [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. For us like…[Laughs]
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah [Bolingbroke: Yeah]. And now we're like, we can hear any second of that song, and I'm like, I know where that is in the music [Bolingbroke: Yeah] [Tran: Yeah]. Because we’re like…[Laughs]
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: But I would just kind of add, like, we like to have, music serves as a mood [Berman: Mm-huh] [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. Like user experience, like we like if we like to use dissonance a lot [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], you know, technology we use in the workshop the other day, like, how do we contrast the mood. So not always doing everything to the beat, but to, to heighten what we want to say [Berman: Yeah].
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-huh. It's another form of, of contribution or, you know, and a complementary way of working. And I also appreciate that you don't just focus on the technique of the music, but that you start looking at like, Oh, let me break this down. Where does Fuge fit in other areas of study, like psychology, you know, all of that, that's 360 degrees? How is the relationship to music the same or different when you're in a battle versus what you describe as the theater world?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: I mean, in a battle, you should be on the music all the time [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. It should be hitting the beats [Berman: Mm-huh], you should be, you should be dancing [Berman: Yeah], as accurately to the music [Berman: Yeah] as possible. In theater, you can create contrast and themes by not following the music [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So if it's like going crazy, and you're just, like that is the [Bolingbroke: Super slow] Yeah, [Berman: Yeah].
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Just translating that for audio, is that intensity and minute movement that you just offered to [Tran: Yeah], you know, compare it to crazy music, and you can't do that in battling? [Berman: Hmm]
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: I don't think you would read the same, I would venture, Why not? [All three laugh] Maybe I'll try that one day. But in general, the culture has been just, you know, on the music [Berman: Hmm].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: And it's also interesting, like to side note, as we're talking about battles. Another thing that I know both of us really loved about going into the theatre world versus battling is like, you get to repeat [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. You're, you’re not supposed to really repeat in battles [Bolingbroke: Wow]. It's not…
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: …From battle to battle, like if I want to battle, and I went into the next round, I should not run the same moves at all [Berman: Yeah]. That would be like, You ran out of material [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Like, why are you running moves? [Berman: Yeah]
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: That I think speaks a lot to how you talked about, you're always physically researching something [Berman: Mm-huh]. No, no wonder you're like, Oh, I can't just do this one move over and over again. I have to find new ways. Because you're expanding your skill set. You're expanding what's available to you.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: And I don't know if I speak for you. But I feel like I just in general, get bored with my own stuff. And so I'm like, I need new stuff. I always need new stuff [Bolingbroke: Mmm-huh]. So it’s like you're always back at the studio, like back at practicing trying to make something new, make a new move, take something that you did, and make it different [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So that you're surprising yourself constantly.
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: And I mean, we're veering a little bit from the question, [Berman: Yeah] I suppose, but we use repetition a lot in our work though [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] [Berman: Yeah]. We're like, Oh, I can use this move twice or like throughout the whole show [Bolingbroke: Right] [Berman: As like a motif]. As a motif, so they see it [Berman: Yeah ]It keeps reappearing. And so then the audience can be like, Well, why is that? Why do I keep seeing that? [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] And uh..
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And that's also training the viewer [Berman: Right]. And maybe also music is not my background, but when you can sort of follow as a listener, and you're like hearing that. And then the third time it comes around [Berman: Yeah], Oh, it's a little bit different [Tran: Mm-huh], that adds some of the creative elements. And speaking solely as a viewer for myself, sometimes what you do can be so fast or complicated, I need to see it more [Berman: Yeah] than once to truly appreciate it. So thank you for those repetition moments. That feels like we're in on something together [Berman: Yeah], audience and performer [Berman: Mm-huh]. A more sort of practical question, but some of these were sourced from our students too: How do you name a dance? You're, you’re working on something evening length [Berman: Mm-huh], and now you have to like, naming a child, like, [Bolingbroke and audience laughs] you're like, What are you going to be until the end of time? How do you, how do you, [Berman laughs?] you know, and especially sometimes we know like, you have to share the name of a dance, before the dance is done [Berman: Totally]. So yeah, how do you title something?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: That usually, for us, it's been in the middle of the work [Berman: Yeah]. We like to, to grab inspiration from multiple places, which is how most people operate anyway. And then we just, once we find a through line, then we just, then it kind of appears
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah. It's also about like, once we know the through line, and we're like, Okay, we have to title it. It's like what captures this, but also keeps it mysterious? [Bolingbroke: Hmm] I feel like that's the kind of titles we've been [Bolingbroke: That's a dance. Yeah] [Laughs].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Generally, we like titles also that are short enough [Berman: Yeah] that you can just be like, Boom, that one [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. I want a longer title. But like, for example, we wanted or I wanted a show called, “Are you in, Are you out?” [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] But then we shortened it to 60/40, which is like another translation of that [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Like, you're. [Berman: You're over] kind of in most of it, but you're out of it [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Like it's, it’s an uneven split [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So we, our text threads for titles are like ridiculous to each other. We eventually arrive on one.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah. And also like, making sure that it's kind of, I don't know, rolls off, rolls off the tongue [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Like we've been, you know, sometimes we think of titles, but then you say a couple times, and it's like, Mmm, doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't sound the way you want or [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: I, I will say. In, two things. That coming up with a title before isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it drives you [Berman: Mm-huh] [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], to go there [Bolingbroke: Yeah]. But then, borrowing your phrase of [unclear phrase] that I saw in the office, speaking in draft, you don't have to commit to the title [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. You know, it actually, this, this feels better [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And then also, if you're creating a title, in the middle of creating work, that can drive it home as well [Berman: Yeah], like, everybody's on the same page, this is…what is 60/40 about this phrase-work or moment? [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] You know, or, or what is, this section can be a 100, and then this other section [Berman: Mm-huh] can demonstrate [Bolingbroke: Mmm] 0 [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So it’s not, you know what I mean, you can [Bolingbroke: Yeah] [Muffled words].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I also feel like the title, coming up with it mid shelf for us has helped us with costuming [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And it's helped us like solidify, like, what do we want our costumes to look like, and how does that reflect the piece? Because having the title kind of like encompasses what the piece is about, and then it's kind of like, how did the costuming reflect that?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah. That, processing how y'all are sharing this, so much of it sounds exactly how you also work with other dancers. It's contributing, it's contributing [Berman: Mm-huh], and then so it's like, okay, you're always collecting, you're always listening, and then making decisions in response. Like, improvising [Berman: Yeah]. And I really liked this idea of the title is not the cherry on top at the end of making something. It's also not the sort of like basic beginning, once upon a time, and then you go through the rest of it. But it's also in dialogue [Berman: Yeah]. It's something you can play with throughout the process [Tran: Mm-huh]. Speaking of the process, though, whether we're making a dance, composing, you know, a new piece of music writing a paper, what do you do when you kind of hit a wall? You're stuck maybe creatively, and how do you get unstuck?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I can start.
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Yeah, go ahead [Berman laughs]. Because I'm stuck right now [All three laugh].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I think movement-wise, we were talking about this, but movement-wise, actually, you know, who said this to me was James.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE:: Mm-huh. Tell us more. Who is James?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: He's in one of his crews.
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Yeah, he's a B-boy. Originally from Kansas City, transplanted to Minnesota. He was on my crew years ago.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah. Different crew.
Joseph “MN Joe” Tran: Different crew, but he’s dope [Bolingbroke: Yeah]…an inspiration [Berman: Yeah].
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: We’re going to have a different conversation about what's the difference between a crew and a company, but okay yes [Berman laughs] [Tran: Yeah] so, what did James say?
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah like a long time ago, I was at practice, and just to explain practice practices, just one, it's different than rehearsal, I guess. Practice is just you just go there and you work on your own stuff. It's just, you go there with different breakers from the community. And people just go there and practice, whatever they want to practice. So we were at practice, and he was, and I just didn't know what to work on. And I,I was like, I should just leave and he was like, No, when you don't know what to work on, you just practice the basics, and something will just happen [Bolingbroke: Hmm] And it does. And so every time I feel stuck, I just like drill moves that I know. And then something will fall out of it [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And eventually you kind of like get in a zone that then you can switch into creative mode. But like [Bolingbroke: Mmm], it's really hard to force yourself to be creative when you're not in the mood. But you have to, it's like going to work, you have to just start [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And so if you don't know what to work on or you don't know what to make, to me, it's just like, let me just drill some basics [Bolingbroke: Yeah], and then, and then go from there.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: That's great advice. Thank you, James [Berman: Yeah] [Tran: Yeah] [Berman laughs and says: Thanks James]. I'm also curious, I mean Breaking, is still relatively young. But it's been around enough. And if you're trying to not repeat yourself in battles, how do you sort of strike a balance between new vocabulary and old vocabulary? And I'll even personalize this question specific to Breaking because we've seen this in other dance forms when it's just trick, trick, trick. And now we do splits, and now we do fouetté turns, and now we're spinning on our head. That in itself, you know, I would imagine, is something that you, you know, physically as well as maybe choreographically don't want to do just over and over again. You're looking for that flow and sort of an ebb. So how do you navigate through that?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Hmm. I, I would say, I have several answers. So I'm gonna go that way [Bolingbroke: Let's drop them all]. I'm gonna drop them all. So in terms of like the tricks and seeing explosive movement because breaking is very explosive. It's crazy. It's like the craziest thing. I see it every day, all the time. I can’t believe [Bolingbroke: And now it's an Olympic sport] [Berman: Yeah]. And it's an Olympic sport, which is crazy. But what we like to do is high the transitions, make it make sense [Bolingbroke: Hmm] [Berman: Yeah]. One of the best advices that I've been given by Rudy Goblin, whose a Miami-based B-boy, but also choreographer and playwright. And he choreographed, my McKnight solo film [Bolingbroke: Hmm], is that you need to make it make sense. It shouldn't be pragmatic, it should come from, you should hide the transition is what he told me [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. It should be of the world, not just to throw it in there [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Because look, I can do this. But if I'm slumped over, like, I need to find a way to get to that, that spin [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So that was one of the best advices that I've gotten, in terms of choreography and dance [Bolingbroke: Yeah], it is to hide the transition. But I forgot your first part of the question.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Just navigating between those tricks, and what is new versus old vocabulary, you know, picking and choosing.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: I also, I could add [Tran: Yeah] something [Tran: Yeah]. I feel like, also as an older Breaker [Bolingbroke: Mmm], now at this point, like there's a lot of the power moves that I physically, like, can't do anymore because I hurt my back [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And every time I do them, it reinjures it [Bolingbroke: Yep]. So I'm like, Okay, I have to find different, like ways to like be explosive with the movement that my body can do at this point in time [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And, and in reality, like footwork, which we taught in class, footwork can be extremely explosive. It's just the way you do it, It's how you put things together, it's the transitions. And so for me, it's been that journey of like, Okay, maybe I can't throw those power moves in, you know, even if there's a seamless transition. So how else can, can you grab the eye [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], in that same way, but, you know, with movement that isn't deemed as like, trickstery?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Right. And I, and I do think the vocabulary part is that, the foundation is there in any dance form, to be a, an anchor [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So when you create from foundation, you, you understand where the trick is coming from [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so you can set it up for the audience as well, going basic, seeing the basic a couple of times, and then you do the creative thing [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. So, so we always have to honor the basics and the foundation of the dance [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Always. We always have to get better at it, you know, learn new steps, because it's like infinite. The way the foundation is set up is like people have their own, every region has like their own kind of like six step [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh] as an example. And so I think we can't, it's important to me that we don't get like creative all the time, but we have to like, do it from a place of foundation, if that makes sense.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-huh. Mm-huh. It does. And when you’re talking about understanding the foundation in, and both for your, your body for yourselves as well as for the audience, it reminds me of another one of our visiting artists Raphael Xavier, who definitely emphasizes progression [Berman: Yeah] as a choreographic tool as well as a tool of training. And he also, you know, comes [Berman: Mm-huh] from a Breakdancing background, and has explored the theatre world differently.
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Oh Yeah [Berman: Yeah]. Raph is the man [Bolingbroke: Yeah].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Yeah. And he knows about aging and Breaking.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes [Tran: Yeah] [Berman: So] Yes, absolutely.
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: It’s like hard, man [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: He'll be here next week.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah [Tran: So], yeah, tune in. All right, a teaser [Berman laughs and Tran says: Yeah]. But I'm picking up so much new language as well because I think sometimes in dance, we talk about virtuosity. You know, who's the most flexible, who can jump the highest, I think we should maybe start trying on power moves, [Berman laughs], as a more global term in dance-making. I just wanted to appreciate that, for sure. And speaking of vocabulary, so this series is described as “21st Century Dance Practices.” And it really came from a place that being adjacent to a university environment, and a lot of university dance programs in this country, you know, were built out in the mid- 20thcentury, by a lot of white women. Before women could even have their own credit cards, and had a lot of equal rights and protections not just for women, but across society. And so we've perpetuated some Eurocentric thinking and a lot of our conservancy, conservancy-thinking is in that binary. It's ballet or modern [Berman: Mmm]. And so we were like, Yes, that's, that's a big part of a lot of our foundational training, where we've started, and how do we build from there? How do we grow? So we could just name the time that we're in. We are now in the 21st century. But I'm curious, since you accepted this invitation and have been with us this week, and operating in our academic environment, how would you describe 21st century dance practices?
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: I would say that21st century dance practices is, for lack of a better term, at the forefront of bringing in dance that is either self-taught or not traditional in the studio, bringing that and giving that a platform [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Because as a Breaker, I would have never thought this was a thing [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Like I just go to the club, show up at the battle, try to win, and then go home [Bolingbroke and Tran laugh]. And that’s it. And teach a couple classes here and there. But like, this is giving a platform for dance that usually traditionally have not gotten it [Bolingbroke: Mmm].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: And also giving that to the next generation to be like, Here, here's another avenue [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: This is legit [Berman: Yeah]. It's another lane that can get you there [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And get you here. And so I think Breaking is very contemporary. I would argue that it's the most contemporary dance, because every day people are inventing new moves. And that after a few years, those moves are now the foundation again [Berman: Yeah]. So it's like infinite [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh. And maybe even faster now with things like TikTok] [Berman: Yeah]. It's insane. [Bolingbroke and Berman laugh] It is almost annoying to me, like…[The laughing continues]
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Okay. Where's the time to practice if it, if it's just accelerating that quickly? [Berman: Mm-huh]
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Right, right. Which is side nugget of some [Berman says: Oh, we can… and then laughs]
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Okay. All right. All right. All right. Follow up [Tran: Yeah].Well, then I, I would ask a final question. And I'd love to hear from both of you. Because we do have a lot of dancers with us, and they're going to be navigating their ways out into this world. So as far as becoming a, a professional dancer and choreographer, navigating a creative career [Berman: Mm-huh], would you mind sharing some of the best advice that you've received for that sort of longevity, beyond just the latest project [Berman: Sure], but, you know, how do you keep going, because I think those are important tools, too [Berman: Yeah] [Tran: Yeah].
LISA “MONALISA” BERMAN: Um, I had some advice from a friend of mine, Amirah Sackett, and she led that first Hip-Hop company that I was in.Um, she said to me, once a while back, she was like, You know, you may be offered a job, you're not quite sure how to do it. And it, and it, it's probably going to be scary, but you just got to take it [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And the first job that I got choreographing other people, which was for the performing arts high school, they do this thing called, [unclear word] in Minnesota. It was like 25 dancers. And I was like, they asked me, and I was like, Yep, I can do it. I was like, Uhuh [Bolingbroke laughs]. But, um, that advice has helped me push myself in,in choices that I've made,moving my career forward [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Because I feel like, if you're not willing to take a risk, if you're not willing to take that leap into the unknown,like, you'll never be able to, like, living a creative artist's life to me, is there's very little,there's, there's very little that's like, set [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. It's, it's, you're constantly like, I don't know how I'm gonna pay, I actually don't know how I'm gonna pay my bills next fall [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh], I don't know. But because of what I've built, over all these years, like, an opportunity will present itself or I can find a way to make an opportunity or I can pick up the side job if I need to [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. You know, and so it's kind of like, to me about having that end goal in sight. What is that end goal for you? And maybe you need to change it every couple of years, but just moving towards that goal for yourself, and not deviating simply because people are like, Get a real job [Bolingbroke: Hmm], which is something that people had said to me: When are you going to get a real job? [Bolingbroke: Hmm] Like, this is a real job. And so I think the general population of people that go to work 9 to 5, perhaps don't understand that the different realm of a reality that you can live in where you can find this, and you can find that, you can piece this together with that. And that's kind of just about. for me, going to that end goal [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. What, what is that, and how do you feed it?
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And understanding, I mean, it is another form of improvising [Berman: Yeah. No, it's true]. I often will say, like, it's a choose your own adventure [Berman: Yes] in this career that we have chosen [Berman: Mm-huh]. Yeah, there's something so much, but I think also the way you talked about it, like you're gonna have a different relationship to risk [Berman: Yes]. And that's what you're negotiating with yourself [Berman: Mm-huh], as well as inside the larger, yeah, field and society [Berman: Yeah].
JOSEPH “MN JOE” TRAN: Yeah. I would just add on to that. Again, Rudy Goblin, when we're working on our [unclear word] though, he was always like, Surprise yourself. Surprise yourself. Like, make a choice, a new choice in the dance [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Excite you. It's, it’s also the same thing with our career. Surprise yourself. Do the collaboration that scares you a little bit [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. But if you feel like I gotta say it or I gotta do it, you should do that [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. So I think surprising yourself. Acting on, you know, on that fear, within reason, obviously, right? [Berman: Totally]. And making the leap is like super important [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Because you'll figure it out. Because you're never going to be ready. Like [Berman: Right] [Bolingbroke: Mmm], you're gonna try to get ready all the time, you're just not going to do the thing [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. And, and again, yeah, if you feel like you need to say something or do something, you should do it. And which I would, did want to add to the 21st century dance practice [Bolingbroke:Yeah] question was that I, I love that you have it, because just because it's not classically-trained or classical doesn't mean it doesn't have its own traditions [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. The artists that you're bringing in here, there's a wealth of knowledge [Berman: Yeah] from those people yet, even though that they weren't in the studio or training [Berman: Yeah] [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. Breaking so much history [Berman: Yeah]. And so I love that you guys are given that opportunity as well. It's, is that there's tradition, in every art form [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. There's, there’s classical in every art form. That doesn't [Berman: Yeah] mean it's European [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. It's like, it can still be classical [Berman: Mm-huh], African, diasporic [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh]. You know what I mean? [Bolingbroke: Mm-huh, Mm-huh] Like, so I just want to add that.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Thank you for that reminder too, to not only look at the new but to understand its background and history and the tradition of its organizing. So fabulous. Please join me in thanking Joe and Lisa [Bolingbroke and audience claps].
OUTRODUCTION: Inside The Dancer’s Studio Live Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. James Sleeman is our editor. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus. Special thanks to the team on the ground in Akron, Ohio. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at NCCakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Please share with your friends and if you’d like to help get the word out rate us, and leave a review on Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay curious.