In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with three award-winning New York City based choreographers: Tendayi Kuumba, Annie-B Parson, and Donna Uchizono who were in Akron collaborating on a new work.
In this episode, NCCAkron's Executive/Artistic Director, Christy Bolingbroke enters the 'studio' with three award-winning New York City based choreographers: Tendayi Kuumba, Annie-B Parson, and Donna Uchizono who were in Akron collaborating on a new work.
Tendayi Kuumba: whostendayi.com
Donna Uchizono: donnauchizono.org
Annie-B Parson: bigdancetheater.org
INTRODUCTION: Thanks for joining us Inside The Dancer’s Studio, where we bring listeners like you closer to the creative process. Inside The Dancer’s Studio is a program of the National Center for Choreography at the University of Akron as part of our Ideas in Motion initiative. This episode was recorded in the presence of a virtual audience in 2023. Today we joined Christy Bolingbroke, our Executive/Artistic Director, in conversation with three New York City-based choreographers who were on the ground in Akron, sharing a Creative Residency in Spring of 2023. First, we hear from Tendayi Kuumba, then Annie-B Parson, and finally, Donna Uchizono.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Tendayi Kuumba, one of Dance Magazine's “25 To Watch” in 2023. International dancer, choreographer, singer, and songwriter Tendayi is a graduate of North Atlanta High School of Performing Arts and Spelman College, awarded Chita Rivera’s “Outstanding Female” for her role as Lady in Brown in the Tony nominated Broadway revival, For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Is Enuf. Tendayi is a former touring company member of Urban Bush Women, and background vocalist, dancer, and original cast member of the special Tony Award-winning David Byrne’s American Utopia on Broadway World Tour, and the HBO film adaptation directed by Spike Lee. Tendayi also is a longtime collaborator with partner Greg Purnell, under the alias UFlyMothership with sonic choreographic projects, like Heroiné, Incog-negro, U.F.O: Unidentified Fly Objects, among many others. Please join me in welcoming Tendayi Kuumba.
So, I am curious with all of your performance accolades, when did you decide to become a choreographer? Was there a moment or a certain event that sort of set that into motion?
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Um, I think it's been a working/building thing in me for a while. Even from college, always very interested in creating work. But I've also been really blessed to work with a lot of amazing choreographers that are rooted in collaboration [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], and really make space for creation. And so, I feel like I was tapping into my choreographer bone long before I claimed it in various spaces. So, it's nice that now, I feel like now I've earned the right to step in a place of like, yes, I'm a choreographer. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. You're just practicing. You're rehearsing. We understand that [Kuumba: Yeah]. But you're just kind of sharpening the tools.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Massaging it out. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. So where do you like to look for your inspiration, right? Every choreographer works differently. When, when you're starting on your own work. Where does that begin?
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Oh it, I mean, it begins in so many spaces. I mean, one living in New York is inspirational all in itself. Traveling on the train, little things can just spark so many thoughts. Also, as a vocalist, and my partner, Greg Purnell, who we create work together, that inspiration also kind of comes, with other humming sounds come to mind [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. I just tried to let that lead, lead the way, which is kind of what's happening with this work. It started off from a hum and a tune. And then it just, I was like, let me just keep on revisiting this to see where it opens up to, and then how it feels earned in the body [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So yeah, a little bit of everything. And, also, I think a lot about teachers that I've had that have left an imprint on me [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], and tools that they've used in creation. And I feel like I tap into those things as well.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mmm.So, I love this idea. You know that it, it comes also from your, you know, ability as a vocalist. And, and I've heard others also remind me that dancers and singers have the same instrument, right [Kuumba: Mm-hmm], that is the body [Kuumba: Mm-hmm]. So, what do you look for then in dancers? Do they also need to be able to tap that vocalist- ability and instrument? Or are there other things? And especially for some of maybe our emerging dancers, some of our dance students out there, who are also like, what if I want to dance like Tendayi one day?
TENDAYI KUUMBA: What is, what is it to dance like Tendayi, I don't know. But I mean, I look for dancers that are bold, and brave, and daring. I, I look for dancers that you don't have to be a vocalist, but there's a, you're rooted in the strength of your voice [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And being able to find whatever to push those notes out, not worrying about it necessarily being pretty. But pushing out first to find that breath, find your voice in the space, and really feel how it moves through your body rather than kind of forcing it. So that's one thing I look for. I look for musicality. I, I listen to a lot of or create a lot of polyrhythmic overlapping between music, play and body play [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so, I definitely listen to a lot of the nuances between notes, between breath. Yeah, those are the things that I'm drawn to a lot, and also speaks a lot to the people that I've been able to create with here. And then just in my career [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], that I gravitate, and have gravitated towards.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So, it's interesting, listening, and be able to do nuanced listening [Kuumba: Mm-hmm], sounds like definitely something that you look for [Kuumba: Yeah]. But just because you're a vocalist doesn't mean that they have to literally be able to sing [Kuumba: No]. I love that idea of voice and bold in your voice as a metaphor to, to [Kuumba: Yeah] and really personality too.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Yeah, and personality. I mean, I am also like musical theater background as well. So, I, a lot of, you know, expression, communication, and like the melding of the pedestrian in us, and how that comes into the studio. Rather than cutting off that part of ourselves to dance [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. I want to bring that in with us because that's why we're dancing. That's why we decided to keep dancing as people [ Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And us as movers have this deep strength in our bodies, in this muscle. And so, I feel it's really beautiful when dancers vocalize even when they're not considering themselves a singer. But when they vocalize because we pull from like a deep breath, a deep guttural breath, and put those notes out, and you can, I, well, I can feel that when I've seen other people's work as well. When you are like breathing so heavy, and as movers we’re used to just goin’, goin’, and goin’ and goin’, and we have this amazing sense of dur—like duration [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. And so, the how to melt and use that duration to kind of keep on grinding that muscle, and then let the air and the noise, the noise come out is something that I'm drawn to, and that I really love to build around in my own work.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hmm. The, I want to invite you to, to describe your movement aesthetic. Right like still to this day [Kuumba: Hmm], coming to my dance show can be a very scary proposition to, to the uninitiated [Kuumba: Yeah]. And, and at the same time the field is, is expanding so much more than, than it was even 50-60 years ago, in terms of the types of dance that we're seeing on stage. How would you describe your movement style or aesthetic?
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Hmm. I would describe my movement, a lot of a melting pot [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. I was one of those students that was in a Pointe ballet class and then went to West African class, and then [Bolingbroke: Yes] went to Tap class, and it all, but they all made sense together for me [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. So, I'm, my movement, I feel like I tried to tap into every layer of African diasporic forms, but through a contemporary lens, and a spiritual, spiritual kind of, I don't know, container [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm] in a way [Bolingbroke: You’re a vessel]. Yeah, I tried. That's absolutely that's, that's what I feel like, and that's when I teach or even when choreographing, it feeling earned in the body [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. So, there's as much as though as if there's an undulation there's also the Tendu was not just a Tendu, like how to breathe through that. Yeah, but like my movement is a melting pot of African diasporic forms, contemporary forms, contemporary movement, flow, in and out of the floor, contact improvisation, and, and guttural vocalization.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Nice, nice. Well, and you know, you, it sounds like you're definitely doing something right. Because if we said you've been seen, getting some acknowledgments. I would imagine, you know, for anyone who is trying to navigate a creative career, they're like, how do we do this? And, and I often will remind our, you know, arts administrative students and colleagues like it is a choose your own adventure [Kuumba: Mm-hmm], how we get through this [Kuumba: Yeah]. But I wonder, is one last question for our initial meet up here: What advice would you offer for anyone trying to navigate a creative career?
TENDAYI KUUMBA: One thing I would say is just really find what you have special [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. That is, I mean, it sounds like it might sound a little cliche, but it really has helped me even when taking class or I mean, literally using an audition as a class, even though that sounds cliche, it really has impacted my movement. And don't be afraid to step out into something that may feel uncomfortable/ I was blessed to be able to throw myself into some experimental theater spaces that I wouldn't have normally put myself in. But it really opened up my eyes to how I see movement, how I see art and creation. And there's no one, one way, you know [Bolingbroke: Hmm], you just have to kind of trust your path. And the only way that you can find that is to trust your body, and find the strength in your body, find the growth in your body so that when you step into those spaces, which is really the thing of like, you may not know when the call is going to come [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. But it's really about when the call comes how when you step in that room, you really rooted in knowing all of the history that you're individually bringing into that space, and how you can highlight that amongst everyone else, so that you're clear that even if you get the part or you don't get the part you're clear, and you're true to yourself [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. And then when you have spaces like this to be able to explore and create, and choreograph, there's so many pots that you can pull from because of these experiences [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So, then it feels earned, and the freedom feels liberating.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I love that. Thank you for that reminder too. Tendayi, we're gonna bring you back later on to talk all together with Donna and with Annie-B [Kuumba: Yeah]. But thank you for joining us for right now.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Thank you [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm].
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Excellent. So yes, for our friends who are just tuning in now from you know, live while we're going through this, I wanted to let you know, we see you. We so appreciate that you've joined us this evening. We have not made time or space to be able to field live questions or comments from the audience. I will look at those as much as possible in the chat, and, try to give them voice. Thank you so much Eva for also naming that Tendayi is, would be a wonderful mentor to younger dancers. Couldn't agree more. And I think that also she is on that path, and already making it happen with us here on the ground here. I am excited to welcome our next guest. Here we have Annie-B Parson, who co-founded OBIE and Bessie award-winning Big Dance Theater in 1991. Her work with big dance has been commissioned by the Brooklyn Academy of Music, Sadler's Wells, London, the Old Vic in London, the National Theatre of Paris, The Kitchen, The Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago, the Walker Art Museum, and many others. Annie-B has created choreography for opera, pop stars, television, movies, theatre, ballet, symphonies, advertising, objects, museums, augmented reality, and 1000 amateur singers. I love that that was counted: 1000 of them. Her work for theatre, opera, and film includes plays by Sarah Ruhl, Suzan-Lori Parks, Nico Muhly, Spike Lee, and Jonathan Demme, among others. She received the Chita Rivera Critics Choice Award in 2022, the Doris Duke Performing Artist Award in 2014, an Olivier Award nomination in choreography in 2015, the Foundation for Contemporary Arts in 2014, USA Artists Award, Guggenheim Fellowship in Choreography, two Bessie Awards, a Frankie Award, and three Lucille Lortel nominations. She was honored by P.S.122 and Danspace in May of 2021, and has published two books on choreography, both Drawing the Surface of Dance is published by Wesleyan press, and recently The Choreography of Everyday Life. Please join me in welcoming Annie-B Parson. Hey, Annie-B.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Hi, Christy.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I'm so glad that we get to do this. Thank you so much for bringing a giant cast. And I'm so glad that you finally got to come to Akron as well.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Well, we are having a great time getting tons done, and very grateful for your staff and your work.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I was at your book launch for the everyday, you know The Choreography of Everyday Life last fall. And so, I've wanted to ask you this question for a while, like because of your illustration, your drawing practice, and also your writing practice as an author, How do those things mesh or inform your dance-making practice? Is, is there a sort of rhyme or reason that one comes first or is a follow to the other? I want to know more?
ANNIE-B PARSON: Well, I think that the drawing, I started doing sort of unconsciously because when I would finish a piece, I would have this sort of strange, empty feeling. You know, the, the ephemerality of dance is not something that I romanticize. And so, I would find myself just sitting down and drawing all the objects were in the piece. Because I tend to have a number of objects in my piece, or at least a few, or just the costumes, just the stuff. And I would feel like almost like I was unpacking, and putting my stuff away into the drawers after a long trip. And it, I guess it was a kind of closure, and I got into the habit, and I did that, you know, just sort of unconsciously, I really think so. And then I gathered them all one day and said, oh, wow, maybe this could be a book. So. And I continued to do that. But the drawing has expanded in that I've had an opportunity to draw other things too, besides the ends of my pieces, the aftermaths. The writing is a bit different in that, like I was given an opportunity to write a book out of the blue during COVID. And I just was like, Okay. So, I don't know how to fix my dances yet because I really don't even think of myself as an author.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hmm. I mean, that's, that's so real. I mean, I often will talk with dance-makers who are like, I don't want to write grants or press releases or books. That's why I make dances. And so, I think that's why I was really curious, because, because not everyone wants to put a sentence together using conventional words. They want to make dances instead.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Yeah, it's true. But it was, it's kind of an easy shift for me, because I had used a lot of, and continue to use a lot of grammar and poetic forms in my dances [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So I just sort of flipped the form and said, How can I choreograph the page? [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm] So it actually was the most enjoyable process. I mean, for someone whose worked to in room with people for, you know, decades to be alone and make something was, it was really, really interesting.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Wonderful. And talking about being in a room with people, because that's a lot of different operating environments, if it's advertising, or, more recently, The Hours with The Metropolitan Opera, Candide with Daniel Fish, over in, in France, as well as David Byrne’s American Utopia, and Here Lies Love. So between those things, and then when with your own company, how is choreographing the same or different across all those different working environments?
ANNIE-B PARSON: It's the same [Bolingbroke: It is?] I think. Yeah. And especially I sort of had this realization when I was working in pop music, that I, it's all just composition [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And the, the only difference is if people trust you, and they're willing to try these ideas that in our world seem sort of part of the drinking water, but in other worlds are surprising, and sometimes scary or [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], you know, formally scary, which I do think is a form of fear [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So once I sort of realized a couple jobs ago, that it was all about composition, it's all about lines and spaces, it's all about, you know, all the compositional elements of time, shape, space, dynamics, you know, all those things, there, it's really every job is the same, if I'm not the author. Meaning, you know, when I'm in the lead, that's a different process.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Is that where you find that you try out new ideas or explore new territory? So, there's [Parson: Yeah] kind of your own relationship with uncertainty.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Def, definitely. That, that's beautifully put. I just don't know what the hell I'm doing when I work by myself. And when I work under a director or a musician or something, I can't afford to not to be in the in the, in the deep dark, you know, primeval forests. That's not where I belong. And that's where that author belongs. And I'm in service to that artist.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mm-hmm, Yeah. that, that you know, we've kind of like, where you're in service to, instead of having to also lead [Parson: Mm-hmm], and explore, and, and sort of, I feel…
ANNIE-B PARSON: And I enjoy that [Bolingbroke: This way. Yeah]. Exactly. And I enjoyed that I like to work for, for people as well [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. Especially great, great artists. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yeah. And you've worked with many great artists, too. So that, what a gift to be able to continue to have that sort of dynamic, and, go back and forth between worlds [Parson: True] as well. For this project that, that you're working on, you have brought in people to work with you, and Big Dance Theater and expanded a little bit. I've been thinking about The Choreography of Everyday Life, because one of the excerpts you talk about, triangulating to various reference points, and that that triangle may change over time, depending on it well, in the book, it's about Ulysses Odyssey, and whether it's relevant, or its relevance may adjust when you read it. Yeah, as a teenager versus as an adult. By bringing in Donna Uchizono and Tendayi Kuumba into this next project, you sort of created your own triangle [Parson: Its true]. I just wanted to name that, and I'm curious if there are any other common reference points that you are exploring with them. And it's so early at the outset of this process, but I just had to name it.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Well, in a, of course, I loved that. And as a choreographer, you know, shape is very essential. So, I guess I have a theory that everyone has a shape. And mine might be a triangle. I like, I like the idea that you're bringing up, the compositionally, maybe that's like in play here as well. Yeah, I brought to the table to them. And they seem to open to it, the idea. And it's a very, very broad idea that we were all looking at ideas around dancing together [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. What does it mean to dance together? What happens? What doesn't happen? What are the dystopian aspects of it? What are the utopian aspects of it? And it just seemed like something I've been thinking about since like, 2016, I had this idea and, you know, just never manifest, to really look at it. And some aspect of that is unison, for sure. And so, when you're the opposite of unison, I guess would be, in a sense, could be loneliness, or isolation [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And sort of looking at not isolation and loneliness. But instead, what happens when people move together in time. It doesn't have to be dancing [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. We do it as a culture in many, many forms, all the time [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. Even the way we stood during COVID. When we stood six feet apart, or we stood on the X's in the, in the grocery store, and we were very good. We were very, very good at that. We were excellent. And we were dancing together, in space [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], and time. And the, the society found a unison. That's just a tiny example. But you know, we're looking at, in my piece, we're looking at marching, the beauty and ecstasy of army drills. Did you know that now they still train people in the American army base camps in marching [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. But we don't march, they don't march, obviously, on the battlefield [Bolingbroke: It’s not a ground game anymore. Yeah]. It's not. And they're not going to march. But they still train in it, because it's binding. It's bonding. It brings people together. And it creates apparently a form of ecstasy [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. And I've read quite a bit about that. So, I'm just mentioning one, one thing, but in the world beyond dance, the society does move in unison in different ways [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. And I'm interested, I'm personally interested in that. But what Donna and Tendayi are doing with it, I hope is, you know, something very much their own, you know [Bolingbroke: Yeah]. It's a very open ended, yeah, query.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: And it, and it’s such a great reminder, though, because the end you said, like those of us in the dance field and world, like, maybe we take for granted what it is to move together, right. Even in something as simple as across the floor [Parson: Yeah]. And that people are moving, and sort of navigating together, whether it's driving on a freeway or navigating the streets of New York. And, and I have to wonder if, if maybe coming out of quarantine, we've forgotten some of that sense of coming together. And, and so, it's really it, I'm, I’m thinking about when I work with some community organizers, who will reflect that yeah, you know, we built a new park and we offer games on one night, but the most, like successful activity, were hustle lessons in a dilapidated parking lot. And it's like, yeah [Parson: Yeah], people also [Parson: Yeah] that ecstatic feeling like to move together, to maybe not use the words, but to feel that they're a part of something moving. And so, of course, armies in the military are still training people to march. They’re, you know, in Corporate America, they call it team building, right?
ANNIE-B PARSON: Team-building and, and we're talking about, we know as dancers, so that's what's actually happening when they're doing the hustle and stuff [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm] is they're getting, their bodies are becoming one, you know, that there's something physically that's occurring, that in, in the army, or this one writer, I read about a cause, make it getting bigger Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And it can be intimidating, it can be binding, but you're becoming one, when you come together in time Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], with steps. It's super interesting stuff. But it's, I'm sure if we had like a, you know, somebody in physics or something here, they could talk more about it on a physical level. But you can feel it.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: But the process is still early, so we'll, we'll put it out there in case any physicists, you know, want to surface as you continue through this process. A couple shout outs just to acknowledge I'm, I’m going to make an assumption based on the spelling that another NCCAkron alum has chimed in, Tere O'Connor. “Annie, you are the best triangle. Just wanna give you those accolades as they come up. [Parson: Thanks, Tere]. And, and Charmaine, I'm also guessing based on the spelling that this might be a familiar face and voice. “Hello, lovely, sorry that she's just joining us now. Very excited that we are surrounded by our community, and, finding a way to be together even digitally.” [Parson: Hmm]. We're going to bring you back a little bit later. But thank you [Parson: Okay] very much for now, Annie.
ANNIE-B PARSON: Thank you. Good to talk.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: All right.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: We have one more choreographer. It's, it's been a rich couple of weeks, y'all. I'm saying. And very excited to welcome finally this evening, Donna Uchizono, dance artist based in New York City and Artistic Director of Donna Uchizono Company, which has toured throughout the US, Europe, Asia, South America, and Australia. A United States artist awardee, a Guggenheim Fellow, and Bessie recipient, Uchizono has been distinguished by numerous national awards and grants. She has been commissioned to create work for notables like Mikhail Baryshnikov, Paula Vogel, David Hammons, and Oliver Sacks. She's active in the community, and, committed to mentorship advocacy for young dance makers. She served as a mentor for Sugar Salon, Double Plus at Gibney Dance Center, and currently through Donna Uchizono’s Company's own choreographic mentorship program, “Shared Choreographic Practice.” She founded the Artist Advisory Board at Danspace Project, initiated a panel series on issues in the dance field at Gibney, and has served as a grants panelist for various funding institutions. Since 2022, Uchizono has been humbled by the distinction of being the first and only American born choreographer of Asian ancestry in the history of modern dance, who has received cumulative national award recognition and toured an eponymous Dance Company across the US and internationally. She has been continuously grappling with issues of invisibility, visibility, and the subsequent sense of isolation from the lack of American born of Asian descent dance mentors who share the experience of growing up with the invisibilized scars of racism. Very excited. Please join me in welcoming Donna Uchizono.
DONNA UCHIZONO: Hello.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hey, Donna, thanks so much for being with us [Uchizono: Yes Christy]. So excited that we could work it out. Yay!
DONNA UCHIZONO: I know. It's exciting [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. It's exciting. I'm so very happy to be here.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yay. And I, I was really fascinated in doing some research and understanding, there was a moment with all of that those accomplishments, there was a moment way back when that you were going to go to med school? [Uchizono: Yes]. And you decided to forego that when a teacher declared you an abstract choreographer? [Uchizono: Yes]. What does that mean, in your own words? Especially because you've built an entire career around it.
DONNA UCHIZONO: Well, I just have to say just briefly, when, first of all, when she said it, I, I thought, I'm an abstract choreographer. And I remember running home to my mom and said, Mom, I'm, you know, I'm not going to go to med school. She said, Why? I go, because I'm an abstract choreographer. And she said, what is that? And I said, I don't know. But that I, that I know, that's what I am. So, in some ways, I still don't know what it is [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. But I think that it, there was a recognition that I would be able, because of being the only Asian except my sister in the high school [Bolingbroke: Hmm], I would be able to, somehow, it was like lightning struck, and that I felt like I would be able to define who I was [Bolingbroke: Mmm], rather than the perception of me. And there was so much freedom in that [Bolingbroke: Mmm]. And when I think about abstract, now especially when I think about abstract, I don't see it as something that is not narrative, that it doesn't have something realistic. What I see is that it offers possibilities, and also can as, as a choreographer, in, in an abstract way, it can also do something that is beyond the restraint of a word [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Where a word, when you say a word it there's a structure and definition. And I feel like in the ap, and for me, that there is room [Bolingbroke: Hmm], room to interpret and listen in a different way. And but in that room, and so in some ways sometimes. So, I use it and think about it in different ways. I think about like abstract, as a form, as a form [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], as a form of structure, and that narrative and kind of floats in, in, the narrative and the emotional, emotionalism or representation floats in and out of that, in of, in that I can also have a very formal structure that might feel abstract, which with a just a heated interior narrative [Bolingbroke: Hmm], and that, that those two come forth in a way that is open, and I think sometimes breathtaking.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Mmm [Uchizono: I mean. Yes]. Because it's, it's not limiting. Right, like out of [Uchizono: Yes] all the categories or names, It's the one with the most room. And, and something else that that we had talked about is it's almost like working and pushing beyond words. Like what's on the other side of that [Uchizono: Yes]. You describe something that I want to lift up that sometimes you'll talk to, to the dancers about, like, what, you know, sanding something down. So that, that it's, it's like going deeper and distilling somehow more so than adding the ornamentation to it, maybe.
DONNA UCHIZONO: Yeah, it's distillation is something that I feel I like to discover. And sometimes it, when something is very distilled, it doesn't really doesn't, I don't always remain there, but it, it feels like, Ah, I know something because it's at its essence [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And just to say about words, I am not a wordsmith, I like, Annie-B writes. I'm, I am in complete awe of anyone who can write [Bolingbroke: Hmm], and who has the ability to express with words. I cannot. And so, words have always been limiting. And for me, yes, it's, it's not only distillation, but it's also an opening [Bolingbroke: Hmm] of what that distillation, it's like, sometimes you, I can find the distillation, and then it opens back up where I'm like, Oh, I have to even find it more, and that let that grow into something that is beyond, yeah, distillation, you know, something distilling something.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, with the idea of like, this could be endless, it could be towards infinity. When you are working, how do you know when a piece is, quote, unquote, done?
DONNA UCHIZONO: Hmm.There are very few pieces for me that I felt were done. I mean, obviously, once the performance is over, and you don't have repeat performances, you, you have to accept that it's done [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Yeah, I, I would say there are very few pieces that I felt like were done [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. Like, Ahhh. Because I'm always thinking, Oh, that, that little thing and stuff. But yeah. So, I don't know when a piece is done [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And, and pieces change when the audience changes. And piece, pieces change when it's a different time. Pieces change when you know, and so it's like. That, the, the beauty of dance is it is life in that it's so ephemeral, but it what, what is happening in the moment, is it [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And then you have the next moment, and the next moment. So, when is that done? I don't know if [Bolingbroke: Yeah] it's ever done. I don’t know [Bolingbroke: Yeah] Yeah. I don't know when a piece is done. I think that, that yeah, the one piece that I'm thinking I'm like, Ohh I don't have anything else to add, or say, or [Bolingbroke: Hmm] edit out.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So maybe it's not done but it at least it feels full or complete.
DONNA UCHIZONO: It felt, yeah, there's been, yeah, one, yeah, I would say one piece that felt complete.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Well, well, I, I appreciate a Janice Garrett, a choreographer in San Francisco - Bay Area that said once like performances are just interruptions of the creative process. [Uchizono: Yeah]. I really…
DONNA UCHIZONO: I completely agree. You're just completely, you keep thinking, yeah, you keep thinking and thinking and oh and oh and, and how as you change the piece changes. How you change the, the way you perceive that piece changes. Like Oh [Bolingbroke: Hmm], that was what was going on, and I didn't see that [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. Yeah.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I mean, it's, it’s something else even indirectly that you bring up to the triangulating conversation I was having with Annie-B, that you, you can read something in high school, you can read it again as an adult, and you totally relate to it differently. It is, I think, next level artist fabulousness that you can also relate to your own work differently over time. Right? That if you can make something once, and then now through the course of your several decades in your career, to revisit something and relate to it in a wholly different ways, is pretty amazing
DONNA UCHIZONO: In a completely different way. Yes. You, you know, hmm, it's like, you grow up, and sometimes the pieces grow as well [Bolingbroke: Hmm], even though they're, they're stayed in one place. And then there's some pieces that you go, Wow. Okay, it stayed in one place. Depending on the piece. [Bolingbroke: Yeah]. Yeah, depending on the piece that for sure. For me anyway.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: How, if at all, has your sort of approach to dance making changed over time? What's that evolution been like or and or what has stayed the same?
DONNA UCHIZONO: I think what has definitely stayed the same anyway, is that I do feel like, when I have the time, it normally I try to have a dialogue with the dance itself. And I'm coming to a place as a choreographer right now where I don't feel like I'm, I'm a choreographer or I don't feel like I'm making, I don't make dance [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. I, I intuit, I like I hear, I hear the, the kind of quiet undercurrents that want to be heard or need to be heard. And some of it is loud, but are not being heard Bolingbroke Hmm]. And so, and so it's always feels like I'm listening to something in, in, in, in a dialogue, and I'm like, are you sure you want to go there? Oh-okay, well, we'll try it [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And then we go, and I go, Okay, I'm not sure. Ahh. Well, let's see. So, it's, it's seems like it's a constant dialogue with, with the, with the process in the dance itself [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And you're, you're making what, what comes out then determines the structure and the architecture, the larger archic, architecture of the piece comes from the dance. It's like saying, saying, I want to be this [Bolingbroke: Hmm], and I'm just helping to facilitate what that is. It's like, Okay [Bolingbroke: Hmm], okay, I'm with you. Yeah, let's, let's, let's try that. Not sure it's gonna work. But let's try it, you know, kind of thing. And, yeah. Well…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I love this idea of listening instead of making. And it also reminds me of some of what Tendayi was talking to us about, what she looks for in dancers is nuanced listeners [Uchizono: Mm-hmm], to be able to relate to all the different things [Uchizono: Mm-hmm]. And so, I'm thinking, let's bring Tendai and Annie-B back into the conversation.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: So, so I have just a couple of questions, and then I would love to open it up to for y'all to talk to each other to because you've been working here on the ground. Sometimes this ships passing through the day, because we've been able to, you know, give you additional studio spaces. So, we are working in lots of different ways. But I'm really curious, and would love to hear from each of you with this idea of coming together, and a larger cast, this affords different opportunities than say choreographing a solo or even working with, you know, maybe a smaller group like four or five people. So how would each of you describe your approach to scaling up to the task at hand? Where, how did that say, Oh, this is a scary, exciting new place. I'm going to try something. Or was this maybe familiar ground that you're like, Oh, I haven't done it in a while but let's go ahead.
ANNIE-B PARSON: All I can say is that, it seemed like we needed a lot of bodies in order to express this idea of dancing together [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And when I think about it personally, I, I sort of feel like I'm hallucinating a little bit. Like I close my eyes, and I imagined so many things with groups, a large group of people dancing, as one. So many different shapes, almost like something between, you know, like, if you ever see pigs in a field, and there's like one running away, and then the other ones kind of go and join them, and then two run, and then the other ones, that kind of thing. Or today, I saw a bird, and a bird just was looked very random flying around, and he landed, and as he landed, all these other birds landed in the exact same moment facing the same direction in perfect unison. It's just everywhere [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So, it's sort of, I have, I don't have the whole group yet. So, I haven't even faced [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm] the multiple bodies. So, the exponential cells, you know. But that's, it's sort of a trip for my mind right now is where I'm at. I'll pass the ball to Tendayi.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: I mean, I echo that. Definitely inspiration with nature. I had a moment also watching ducks in a pond, and how they flock, which I feel like with thinking of unison, and so many bodies in one space. And we're gonna have so many amazing different bodies, in one space with so much information. I do, I just see like waves, waves of body, like when trees all blow at the same time, and all the leaves start to flicker [Parson: Yeah]. But like our palms, the palms of the hand, like just that alone, a group, a sea of people flipping their palms back and forth, all at the same time. From far away, it's like an ant pile, like in the most amazing way [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. So that's kind of how I've been envisioning. And similar of the isolation moments of solo, individual, and how to, how we lay, layer up on each other, you know [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. How we come scaffold up, and how we trickle back down.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Hmm. Well, and you went out to the Brandywine Falls today [Kuumba: Yeah], in nature as well…the movement of water.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: Yeah, we had a nice site, site visit little inspiration, nature hike, and just being in the water and feeling that, and having that just naturally inform the body is something that is important to me. So, it's like, I can't be one with everybody else. If I can be one with nature [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Then I can, you know, call and response from that to give to the dancers.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: I love that. Donna, you've, you’ve worked with at least a, a large chunk of the dance captains. How are you scaling up to this thinking?
DONNA UCHIZONO: Oh, gosh, the dance captains are, they are wickedly great [Bolingbroke (?): Yeah]. The dance captains have so much information [Bolingbroke: Hmm], and are so intuitive too, and nuanced. And the way they respond on just a small flicker is, it makes you cry [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so, working with the I had the opportunity to work with the dance captains and wow, it was such a joy. And it's humbling how, how remarkable they are as artists in their own right [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And yeah. And also, when I saw the dance, my, my, not my but the dance captains that I am working with in Tendayi’s, I was like, I felt like I couldn't be the mom, but I felt like the, like the aunt or that's something that I was like, Oh, my gosh, they just look so good with everyone. Just everyone looks so good. And anyway, it was, it's been, it's been thrilling. And, and they we were talking earlier, Annie-B and I, Annie-B was talking about what is choreography, and was what is you know, how it's like not the dancers are choreographers, but they are definitely co-collaborators [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm] in they do they contribute so much [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. So yes, yes. And also just about in terms of the, for me, this is the largest group that I will have worked with. And I at first I was like Wow, but you know, I don't think he Donna you've lived in New York City for so long. And when, when you see the kinds of things that happen just spontaneously, it's, it's remarkable. We see it, choreography is just happening all the time [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], all the time, not. Not, not only nature, but just the way people move [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Like, in unison and not. Oh, I remember on Fourth of July, and just hearing the, hearing the, like the fireworks, like you hear the fireworks and then hearing the Oz, it's like, like that [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], that sound just even that [Demonstrates the sound] [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm]. And the, the delay of sound and, and, and when you just hear that without seeing the visual, you can, it's like, all of these hearts in unison or something that, a sense of [Bolingbroke: Hmm] awe in unison that is so beautiful [Kuumba: That’s funny]. So yeah…
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Oh, well I love that hearts in unison and, and it also is a reminder, I mean, maybe I'm preaching to the choir here, but like dancers are brilliant. They're so smart. They're, how can you be like an empathetic as a mover and, and how we know how to be in proximity to each other, and take care of each other [Uchizono: Yeah]. And so, to be able to have the space to sort of witness that, what you saw, when, when seeing people who you thought you knew, trying on someone else's movement, and how they manifest that. It is, it is magic, and to sort of relish in it. I, I am really excited about that that's coming together. My other question for, for all three of you, because getting big, as, as Annie-B was, was talking about in military thinking often can be driven by music, or a sound score or, or something, you know, drumming and, and that's something else that is not predictable. Not every choreographer relates to music in the same way. So Tendayi, we talked a little bit about vocalizing, but I am curious, how would you describe your relationship to sound as a part of your choreographic process? And then we'll, we'll go to Annie-B. And Donna again.
TENDAYI KUUMBA: I mean, it goes hand in hand, for me. I use the analogy of like the Harlem Renaissance all in one body [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Because I feel it's all, with especially from my specific approach, it's just essential. I realize even with choreographing, sometimes the movement comes first, but sometimes more than often the sound comes first [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And then how my body responds to that is where the choreography comes from. And it's really important, because in the last, I would say maybe since 2017, specifically starting to really understand what it is to build my own music from working with both myself and my partner, Greg, and understanding a new respect for that craft. Like the layering that goes into that beyond just being a vocalist [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. But the actual composing and engineering of it has, it’s like translated over into the movement naturally. So I feel like for me, it just goes hand in hand. It's that natural call and response, like the fireworks and “Ah” sound that Donna was talking about, it feels like that's what it feels like, for me, where it's like, I can really pinpoint a pocket of sound or capture sound like, even in the work that we've been building on, there are sounds of people talking like on the train [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And I feel that, that's important of like, how to keep on bringing in the sounds that I'm naturally getting every day [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. Rather than having to force a sound [Bolingbroke: Hmm], you know [Bolingbroke: Hmm], it's something that I play, I play between, of like, honoring what sounds are naturally happening, and how I respond or how we can build around that. And then when it's time to push and use sound to drive, or to create emotion, or to create shift through the space, source energy shift through the space. So yeah [Bolingbroke: Hmm], it's hand in hand, sound and movement for me are there, they're a married bunch. But I also really appreciate silence [Bolingbroke: Hmm], and the sound how sound lingers in your mind, once the sound is gone, and there's just silence and how it's still, you know, you may go to a concert and you leave, your ears are still ringing, something's still buzzing, and whatever that is, I'm also really interested in investigating through movement. Because of how it resonates and how sound resonates in the body, how it resonates in the water of our body [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. I think is really important. And I yeah, I, it's always just hand in hand for me. I'm like, I can't, I can't sing without dancing. I can't dance without singing [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so as a choreographer, I feel that it's something that I'm just continuing to massage out, and show that it doesn't exist just in one space. It’s not just on Broadway or not just [Bolingbroke: Yeah] in musical theater, you know, it's, it's embedded in us naturally. We're rocking our babies to sleep [Bolingbroke: Hmm], singing lullabies. That's like the first sound and movement [Bolingbroke: Mm-hmm], you know, that we get. So, you know, we have to keep honoring that. So.
CHRISTY BOLINGBROKE: Yes. Excellent. Donna, I mean, we were talking about moving beyond words and, and sort of distillation. How, how do you relate to music or sound in your choreographic process?
DONNA UCHIZONO: I, I feel like I'm a very musical choreographer [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And I have been very lucky, because I'm not a composer to, I've been working, I've been able, thank you, thank you to work with, great, great music makers, and composers [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And so I usually have a music made to what the pieces [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And sometimes, like with, like, I found a piece of music that Okkyung Lee, who's going to be the composer, she made a while ago and I like, Oh, you know what this might fit in, in this. I'm gonna let her know that actually this older piece she made that I found an old kind of record of hers, and she'll be really, I haven't told her yet, she's gonna be, she's gonna be [Bolingbroke: Surprise!] Yay. Okay. Like, you know. And, and, yeah, I, it's, I used to think that, that, that they choreographed me. But it's not that. It’s a co-choreographing-composing [Bolingbroke: Hmm]. And, and the composers that I've worked with have really allowed me to also be part of the compositional part where I go, Oh, maybe that needs to go over here. And so it's been, it's been a great. It's a rich, rich [Bolingbroke: It] life.
OUTRODUCTION: Inside The Dancer’s Studio Live Series is supported by NCCAkron, the University of Akron, the University of Akron Foundation and the Mary Schiller Myers Lecture Series in the Arts. Our podcast program is produced by Jennifer Edwards. James Sleeman is our editor. Theme music by Floco Torres, cover art by Micah Kraus, Transcription by Arushi Singh. Special thanks to the team on the ground in Akron, Ohio. To learn more about NCCAkron, please visit us online at NCCakron.org. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook at NCCAkron. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast streaming platform by searching for Inside The Dancer’s Studio. Thanks so much for listening and stay curious.